2007 F150 5.4 L Triton 3V (flex fuel)- sorry so long- trying to include a lot of detail)

Feb – July 2020 (at approx. 98,000 miles), notice slight bucking going uphill (felt like maybe transmission).

July 12, 2020 took to a shop, who replaced plugs using the Motorcraft replacement plugs for this engine that supposedly don’t break off). Truck was running well before plug change, but it was time. Did a trans fluid change as well. The plug change/trans service eliminated the bucking I was feeling (I’d seen online that old plugs/need of tuneup could cause this bucking; For the next couple of weeks the truck seemed to be running well.

Left for for 1100 mile family vacation, using this truck. At destination

On July 25, 90 degree day after truck warmed up, heavy bucking at low speeds or vehicle stress (like going up incline), and threw code p0344 and po346 - I changed the camshaft sensor in the parking lot, and that did not fix the problem. Took the truck to an engine guy in Rapid City South Dakota (private shop, but he was a ford mechanic for years). I’ll try to represent what he said, but might get it a bit wrong. He said could be cam phasors, but explained that at times what causes the phasor issue (i.e., oil leaking past something associated with timing chain guide) starves the top of engine of oil, so could ruin cam shafts. So, he said before getting phasors changed, get oil pressure check. At the time, he said to get oil change but put 5w30 with Lucas Oil Stab. If this helps the bucking, than likely a larger issue with the engine (and may need new engine). He did no real exam of the car (he was booked solid ) but did listen to it a bit and that didn’t indicate much of anything to him. Oil change stopped the bucking, and the truck ran better, but still wasn’t running quite right. I was sort of figuring engine was on the way out.

Oct 10 (yes I waited two months, don’t ask…), I took truck to my mechanic, and had him look at phasor system (and explained that I was running 5w30 oil). I didn’t have him do any oil pressure test. He changed phasors, timing tensioners, timing guides (plastic was broken up). He put 5w20 back in. Later that night, the bucking to a lesser degree occurred… Over the next 5 days, with light driving, the bucking would occur periodically after the car warmed up. So, I’m thinking there is some sort of oil pressure problem, and my cam (cam bearings?) shot, so will eventually need new engine. I put 5w30 in the engine with the oil stabilizer, and it returns to running fairly stable, with just a little stumble occasionally. No, I’m an idiot and didn’t take it back to him…

April 4, 2021 been driving truck, not quite running right, but was stable until then. Noticed that the truck began to run just a little rougher both in idle and while driving.

May 5, about 105,000 miles, Engine continually running rougher (not terrible, but something continuing to it’s ultimate end). I decide to take it to my mechanic, and on the drive over there I notice a bucking about 1200 rpm at around 40MPH, that goes away when I disengage overdrive. So, trans problem, or something internal to engine causing a perceived trans problem?

Mechanic says he talked to his transmission guy, and that after doing a couple things/tests (didn’t say what and I didn’t specifically ask), that it seemed like a trans rebuild was needed. I explained that I didn’t want to do anything with the trans because I thought the engine was on its way out too, and explained it was “stumbling” at times worse than in past. It didn’t lose much power at all though, just a stumble at idle and while running. He said 2 misfires detected (over last 10 drive cycles). I asked if he would do an oil pressure test (there is a reason I needed to have 5w30 in it), and he said with 5w30, it was at 8 psi. This is consistent with the engine slowly eating itself up I think.

I asked if he could do an engine flush (I do oil changes around 4500 to 5000 miles), and drop oil pan to look for anything clogging oil pump intake, and to do another oil pressure after, and refill with 5w30 and lucas oil stabilizer. He said saw a couple of small plastic (i.e., timing guide) pieces at intake, not huge, but the oil pressure test came back at 15psi (though with 5w30). Took the truck, and it still was driving/idling about the same, with same transmission buck going uphill in overdrive.

Over the next 3 weeks, engine stumbling got worse (and would actually “kick at times, a little loss of power, and the transmission problem would buck (slip?) in gears 2 and 3 in the 1200-1300 rpm range.

June 11 2021, in morning (car warmed up) when merging onto local highway, engine stumbled hard/kicked as if going over a rumble strip. The engine light flashed a Class a A misfire (the code was PO308). The hard stumble occurred a couple of times more, but then stopped. At least the F150 finally threw a code! I got off a couple or 3 miles later, parked at a gas station (when I read the code), and drove home on side streets. A mode 6 data showed 155 misfires in 8 over the last 10 drive cycles, with the recent cycle having a couple dozen.

At home, I traded COP between the eighth cylinder, and the 7th. I had noticed an oily? Residue on the cop boot near the 8th cylinder plug, thought “I wonder what that was.” cleared codes, and on a test drive, the misfire occurred again and stayed at 8. 119 misfires. Returned home, checked the spark plug in 8 and it was loose (i.e., explained the residue on the cop boot); loose enough that when I put the socket and an extension on it, I could turn it a couple of turns, and then ratchet-tightened it the rest. Didn’t go to a specific tork spec, just tight. Cleared codes, Another test drive showed 50 misfires in 8. Ran out of time that day.

June 12, pulled plug and the “u-shaped” ground electrode was not on plug. Used a small camera and saw it in the cylinder. At this point haven’t been able to remove it (have an obligation the rest of today). Tried a magnet tool, and a vacuum (used various tubes continually smaller that I could slip into the cylinder). It looks like the two legs of the U may have been crushed together, but not sure… I think the piece is too large to sucg directly through any hose I could fit in there- may be close to the same diameter as the plug end inserted in the cylinder

Current thoughts:

I want to clear the misfire on 8 to see if it clears up the “transmission” bucking. I’ve seen where misfires could appear to be transmission, and last july, a plug change seemed to clear one up for me.

QUESTION 1: Just wondering if anyone had ideas how to get the U-shaped electrode out of cylinder short of pulling the head… I’d rather not use tape as I would be afraid it could detach from a wide I use to fish it in there, adding to the problem. . Saw on a thread to pull fuel pump relay and crank the engine. May bounce it out of there? Thoughts?



More thoughts. I had phasors (and other timing chain components) changed last october, and it didn’t fix my issues. I wonder if oil pressure was low at that time because a tiny bit of engine sludge and a slightly blocked oil intake. I think in early April, the spark plug in Cyl 8 might have started working itself loose, cause the engine to perform worse (i.e., I was thinking it could be the engine ultimately failing). Then, as the plug continued to work itself loose in early-mid may, the engine continued to run worse (even though the oil pressure problem was somewhat raised), and looked like a transmission problem. So maybe a time chance that transmission is OK? If cylinder 8 not bad (i.e., no valve/wall damage) then maybe the misfire clear-up and the oil pressure increase may have fixed the vehicle (again tiny chance, but trying to rule it out).

QUESTION 2: So, thinking, if I can get the electrode out of cylinder, install new plug, and see if it clears the misfire, see how the engine ruins then? More stumbling? Less stumbling? “transmission” bucking”- and if these have cleared up significantly, I would try to put 5w20 back in to see how it runs? Perhaps from October to May was still an oil pressure issue, and from April to present, a continually increasing misfire (that the Car PCM didn’t record until this last few days) due to a loose spark plug looked similar to what that oil pressure did (and increased over time as the plug loosened)?

Maybe I’m just reaching now maybe, but any thoughts if this line of reason is a small possibility are appreciated… (and I understand that I really may have a bad camshaft/bearings, or other internal engine damage, necessitating a new engine).

So, thoughts about removing the electrode, and on if my reasoning makes any sense about the transmission maybe not being bad, and even the engine not being bad?

Thanks…

 

I would keep 5w30 or 10w40 oil in the engine. That plug tip might not cause problems if you just left it in the engine. With that plug left loose, it was sucking air into the cylinder and leaning it to the point the plug end was burned off the plug. Free advice maybe worth what you paid for it?!

 

Good chance the plug tip will blow itself out the exhaust valve during the exhaust stroke.

When you had the phaser job done, they should have replaced the oil pump with a Melling high volume pump.

 

"That plug tip might not cause problems if you just left it in the engine."
"Good chance the plug tip will blow itself out the exhaust valve during the exhaust stroke"

Good to know. Its the whole U-shaped electrode, so I wasn't sure if it would either scar the cylinder walls if left in there, bend a valve (I had read in a post somewhere that a piece of the plug porcelain had bent a valve), or damage a new plug placed into the cylinder. So sounds like I may be able to "bounce?" it out of there by cranking with the fuel pump relay out... .

"When you had the phaser job done, they should have replaced the oil pump with a Melling high volume pump."
Yep, in hindsight I wish I would have had them do that so I could rule out oil pump as a cause of low oil pressure...

Thanks, and thanks to anyone for any continued thoughts...

 

Update- and a couple of questions.

So, I spent 8 hours over the last four days, trying, thinking, trying, thinking on how to get the electrode out of the cylinder. I've read that in some cases, even small pieces left behind could result in a bent valve.
I used an inspection camera that I had from Harbor Freight (might have seen it once, explained some below),
shop vac- reduced to a 1/4 inch tube that would actually fit in the cylinder itself (I put cheesecloth between the hose and the vac body to see anything caught). I also reduced the hose diameter partially, just enough to hold over the whole spark plug hole, and "pulsed" the vacuum by lifting it off and putting it over the hole. Nothing showed up in the cheesecloth.
I tried a telescopic magnet tool that would fit completely into the plug hole into the cylinder, (nothing showed up)
I tried an air compressor blower long-nosed nozzle that would fit into the cylinder head.
I tried pulling the fuel pump and coil relay fuses and cranking the engine to see if it would bounce out (a couple of times, this moved the piston down into the cylinder bore, letting me get a deeper, better view of the cylinder).
I tried taking a cheap, thin, polyester mesh laundry bag (the mesh tends to snag things), and stuffed it into the cylinder head, used a flat blade screw driver to rotate it clockwise and counter clockwise, and removed it to see if it snagged anything.

The vacuum and air compressor were as much to see if I could move the electrode in case it was in a location where I just couldn't see on the piston surface.

The whole reason I thought I may have something in the cylinder head in the first place, is after looking in the head with the inspection camera for several minutes of not seeing anything in there, I was pulling the camera out, and all of a sudden , saw what appeared to be some rectangular piece... I tried immediately to use the magnetic tool to try and pick it out (remember, I can only see the camera screen as the number 8 cylinder is against the fire wall), unsuccessfully, and never saw it again. Hence, the several hours of various tries to get the piece again. I never even saw the piece again. So, I'm guessing that I pulled it out that first try with the magnet, and it fell off without me seeing it (doubtful, but possible I guess), or I saw some weird sort of glare of the light off the piston itself, that was actually out of focus and for whatever reason appeared rectangular, but was never there (i.e., I was chasing ghosts).

I finally decided that nothing was in there, installed a new plug, the cop, the fuses I had pulled, and took it for a test drive. Misfire on 8 is gone (at least for now).

QUESTION- Assuming that the ground electrode was expelled at some point, if it had done valve damage, then I would likely still have a misfire, right? So, if no misfire, there may not be any cylinder/valve damage that has occurred sufficiently to be a major problem (at least at this point, unless the ground electrode is still in there and going to cause damage in the future)?

When the misfire was cleared, the "transmission" problem disappeared.

The car is running better than in quite a while (at least for now).

THOUGHTS - I had an oil pressure problem from late July 2020, through Mid-May 2021, that was (partially?) cleared up through the timing guide adjuster, timing chain guide, and cam phasors being replaced in july, and the engine flush and oil intake being cleared of a piece of plastic about the size of an adult pinky nail in May. I say partially, because there is a possibility that some engine damage might have occurred from low oil pressure last July, maybe to the cam and cam bearings, that the heavier oil is masking/bandaging. I also had a misfire issue caused by a loose spark plug beginning in April 2021, until today, with similar (but increasing in severity) driveability/engine rough idle and running issues, with similar symptoms at times as the oil pressure problem. Hence, when the "oil pressure" issue was fixed from 8psi to 15 psi in May, I still had driveability issues going on from the misfire that was occurring. Time will tell I guess.

QUESTION: - I've heard others talk about the "oil pressure" issues with some of these 5.4L engines (especially in the 2004-2008 range?)... looking for a guestimate as to the "why"
Is it that the timing guide tensioner begins to leak, reducing oil pressure for the cam phasors (ruining them) and also starting to score the cam shaft/bearings? Then the scored cam somehow reduces oil pressure?
Something else? Just curious...

I think in the next couple thousand miles, when I get an oil change, I'll have 5w20 put in again, to see if drivability issues arise again. More out of curiosity. I will try to remember to have the oil filter saved for me, so I can see if it has metal bits/shavings in it to see if the engine is slowly being eaten away as well. More for planning for the future and judging the reliability for long trips...

Any answers to these questions and thoughts are appreciated...

 

You won't know if you have valve damage unless you do a compression test. Note that your engine does not have cam bearings, the caps and seats act as bearings. You would have to pull the caps to see if the cam journals are scored. I'd stick with at least 5W30 at this time.

 

In this video, the mechanic discusses the tensioner causing oil pressue loss due to gasket failure. at 41 minutes and 45 minutes

 

"You won't know if you have valve damage unless you do a compression test. Note that your engine does not have cam bearings, the caps and seats act as bearings. You would have to pull the caps to see if the cam journals are scored. I'd stick with at least 5W30 at this time."

First, thank You Roadie for that video. I've seen some of that explanation in parts over a few other video, but that was comprehensive and did a great job explaining.

glc (and Roadie and/or anyone else), I'm trying to figure out short-term and long-term reliability, and get an idea as to longetivity... I'd love to do that without pulling valve covers if I don't have to.

So, I believe that at least one of the timing guide tensioners were bad (perhaps both?), and were replaced along with timing guides (mine were broken), and both phasors in October. I don't believe that the shop inspected the cam bearing caps/camshaft. I'm fairly certain that the mechanic would have mentioned if he saw metal shavings in the tensioner, and he didn't say anything about that. I know that when I picked up the Truck in October running 5w20 (after the cam phasor and timing chain component work), it had a lesser problem with running than before the work, but still bad enough for me to just run it with 5w30 (i.e., it would buck and lose some power in a 10 or 20 minute trip). So, at that time I switched to 5w30, that caused the truck to run much better (but still a bit off), and figured that I would need to eventually change the engine (based on what the engine mechanic in South Dakota told me). The truck ran stable until April (i.e., still a bit off but didn't get worse), and continually went down hill through mid-april, May and into June. In Mid-May when the engine was flushed and the oil pan dropped, the mechanic said there was no appreciable sludge, and a small piece of plastic on the oil pump intake screen, and he said he saw no metal shavings in the oil pan- however the oil pressure increased from 8psi to 15 psi, At this time, I had two problems: an oil pressure problem, and a loose spark plug on cyl 8. After that mechanic visit in May, unbeknownst to me, I still had a loose spark plug (and perhaps some kind of Cam or Engine damage?). Because drivability remained rough, I again just figured the engine was soon to fail (and the transmission was bad). Until the Cylinder 8 misfire last Friday, when clearing this (at least at this time) cleared the "transmission" problem.

QUESTION 1: So first, regarding the Cylinder 8. Assume that the electrode was expelled through the exhaust valve. If the electrode did some damage to the valve (currently it's not recording any misfires, and running like it did prior to April), would that damage remain stable and not change, or would that damage continue to get worse through use (even in there is no additional electrode pieces being expelled)? It's currently not apparently throwing any misfires right now, so any damage (if there is any) is not affecting it sufficiently to cause a misfire (at least one detectable by me or the car). (And I will check to make sure no other plugs are loose as well).

QUESTION 2: oil pressure/cams etc...
2A. The timing tensioners have been changed. If it turns out that I require 5w30 to stop the car from really running rough and losing power (or to maintain a 15psi oil pressure- the oil pressure after the oil pump intake screen was cleared and the engine flushed), does that mean I have some damage to the cam caps and camshaft? And if so, what is it about that damage that affects oil pressure right now? How might the caps/cam scoring reduce oil pressure? Assuming iot's there, why is this bad, and what will it eventually cause? Increased friction/heat? Something else?

2B. Could the oil pressure have affected other engine components that could be affecting oil pressure, in the crankshaft or elsewhere?

2C. Is the damage done something likely to stay stable -i.e., not change, so that I could just continue to run 5w30 and gets tens of thousands of miles out of it without the current issues preventing driving of the car?- or is this damage something that once it starts, it continues even if the oil pressure is increased, and failure is somewhat (or immediately) imminent?

THOUGHT/QUESTION 3:
3A . One of the things I may try in the near future is putting 5w20 back into the engine. If the car seems to run well with 5w20, would that indicate that I likely don't have significant internal engine damage? As the oil filter currently has been in there about 1200 miles, I would keep and open it to see if there are metal shavings in it. This line of thinking would be that 5w20 affected the engine because (a small amount) of engine sludge and some clogged oil pump intake reduced the oil pressure from 15psi to 8 psi even after the phasor/timing components were changed. Or is the fact that I'm only getting 15psi running 5w30 enough to say that there is some significant engine damage (i.e., cam caps/shaft, or something else)?

3B. Anyone running 5w30 in these engines, what is a "normal" oil pressure running this heavier weight oil?

3C. If I'm heading for failure, would this failure likely be quick and catastrophic, or would it likely drag on, giving me a few hundred miles of warning?

Thanks again for any thoughts and answers.

I use this Truck to pull a 2500 lb pop-up camper for vacations. I'm trying to gauge trustworthiness. I'm probably willing to trust it on a couple hour jaunts from home, but not sure about those 6hr, 8 hr or 12 hr trips (like one I'd like to take next summer).

Thanks again for any thoughts...

 

If the engine is running okay now quietly with 15 psig oil pressure at idle I wouldn't worry about it and I would run 5w30 oil.

 

Knbowing what I know about the 5.4 3 valve, if you can afford to replace the truck, I would. Without pulling the valve covers and doing some detailed inspections, you just don't know. If it needs heavier oil to maintain oil pressure, use heavier oil.

 

OK. At this time, I probably need to keep the truck. The body is decent, the inside is decent.

Would the main likely damage be to the Cam caps/shafts? Or does the lack of oil pressure affect other internal engine components as well?

Do the remanufactured engines fix some of the downfalls with the 5.4? (If I decide to go that route, I *think* I can have a reman installed in the $5 thousand range, that would have a 3 or 5 year 36000 or 60000 warranty)... I have seen some that mention upgrading to the mellon oil pump, the newer (non-breaking) spark plugs...

 

"You won't know if you have valve damage unless you do a compression test."
(Cranking) Compression in Cylinder 8 was 150psi. Truck has 108,000 miles.

 

That should be good, but to be sure you need to compare it to other cylinders.

 

Just fyi. Crankshaft gets oil first after the pump/filter. Then up into wrist pins and up to camshafts. Then into vct, cam phasors and tensioners.
I have the same oil pressure issues and rough idle after getting to full operating temp. A melling pump helps. I get 80 psi cold. About 25 psi hot. Next oil change...going to 40 weight. I suspect there is enough wear on the cams to reduce oil pressure to phasors.

 

If the idle oil pressure is 15psig when the engine is hot, that seems normal to me.