Tuner caues Dead PCM - According to Dealership
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From: Yellowknife
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From: Northern Illinois
The cost and time involved in this would eventually surpass the price of the repair. Besides, his total bill would be considered small claims. About all an attorney will do is send a letter to the dealership and charge jimc2004 for that, not cheap. If jimc2004 is lucky, the attorney might even make an appearance on jimc2004's behalf, again, not cheap.
IMO, the Magnusson-Moss warranty act is a load.
It's really this simple :
The dealership has his truck. He can get it back broke, or have them repair it. If he elects the later, then the dealership keeps his truck until he pays the bill. Now poor jimc2004 is stuck not only with the bill for repair, but now has to pay an attorney to draft a letter for small claims court.
Lesson learned is don't mod a vehicle under warranty and expect a dealership to cover major issues. ESPECIALLY these days. There may be some out there that might cover it, but they are far and few between.
IMO, the Magnusson-Moss warranty act is a load.
It's really this simple :
The dealership has his truck. He can get it back broke, or have them repair it. If he elects the later, then the dealership keeps his truck until he pays the bill. Now poor jimc2004 is stuck not only with the bill for repair, but now has to pay an attorney to draft a letter for small claims court.
Lesson learned is don't mod a vehicle under warranty and expect a dealership to cover major issues. ESPECIALLY these days. There may be some out there that might cover it, but they are far and few between.
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From: Northeast
The PCM and the truck is operating outside of factory parameters with the use of a programmer. Did it cause the failure? Probably not, but it goes both ways; it's hard to prove that it caused the failure, but also it's hard to prove that it didn't cause the failure.
That said, I'm always worried when I hear someone is replacing a PCM. PCMs don't fail very often, and when they do, typically there's something that caused them to die. I can count the number of legitimately bad PCMs I've replaced in about 12 years on one hand.
Dealers don't go saying "It's the tuner" for everything. If they did replace the PCM under warranty, Ford calls for it to test and see why it failed and determined (by their crazy ways, legitimately or not) that some outside influence killed the PCM. Well, now the dealer is charged back for the processor and all the labor for testing/diagnosis, and no dealer wants to go through that.
That said, I'm always worried when I hear someone is replacing a PCM. PCMs don't fail very often, and when they do, typically there's something that caused them to die. I can count the number of legitimately bad PCMs I've replaced in about 12 years on one hand.
Dealers don't go saying "It's the tuner" for everything. If they did replace the PCM under warranty, Ford calls for it to test and see why it failed and determined (by their crazy ways, legitimately or not) that some outside influence killed the PCM. Well, now the dealer is charged back for the processor and all the labor for testing/diagnosis, and no dealer wants to go through that.
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From: Sugarland, TX
IMO, you're a POS and a thief if you blow your diesel up with a programmer and/or other modifications then return everything to stock before dragging it in trying to get it fixed under warranty. Why should the dealer/manufacturer have to eat a repair that wasn't their fault?
Gotta pay to play.
Gotta pay to play.
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From: off the path in Louisiana
had kinda same thing happen to me. drove to autozone because i was throwing a code, had THEM scan it and diagnose it, and then erase the code. truck wouldn't crank. got it towed to the ford place and my friend who works there threw his computer on it. ended up having to buy another pcm and autozone wouldn't do crap.
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: San Jose, CA
Wondering whether anyone as a user has before and after dyno graphs to show what any of these programs/chips can muster. No blowers, nitrous, or turbos, just wondering what a mostly stock motor with one of these "tunes" would see at the wheels.
The only reason I ask is because I dodged a bullet so to speak, a few years ago when the piggyback Autologic 3 way I had on a 98 Mustang GT corrupted the factory PCU. Long story short, the dealer charged me $250 to re-flash the factory PCU. The Autologic chip had been there since 2000, when I had it installed, and dyno tuned mostly to be able to retard timing for a 150 shot of dry N2O. It had a one program to reduce timing for the N2O, one for nominal, and one as an attempt to bump timing in an effort to gain a few HP while not on the juice. Frankly the chip and tuning on the motor only produced a few HP, negligible at best. If I didn't run premium gas, or better I just got a lot of detonation. So I wonder that even though this is awhile back, do these tunes really yield more than a few HP to the wheels? It seems to me, if one doesn't see 20-25 HP to the wheels, it certainly is not worth the price or potential hassles. Am I wrong?
The only reason I ask is because I dodged a bullet so to speak, a few years ago when the piggyback Autologic 3 way I had on a 98 Mustang GT corrupted the factory PCU. Long story short, the dealer charged me $250 to re-flash the factory PCU. The Autologic chip had been there since 2000, when I had it installed, and dyno tuned mostly to be able to retard timing for a 150 shot of dry N2O. It had a one program to reduce timing for the N2O, one for nominal, and one as an attempt to bump timing in an effort to gain a few HP while not on the juice. Frankly the chip and tuning on the motor only produced a few HP, negligible at best. If I didn't run premium gas, or better I just got a lot of detonation. So I wonder that even though this is awhile back, do these tunes really yield more than a few HP to the wheels? It seems to me, if one doesn't see 20-25 HP to the wheels, it certainly is not worth the price or potential hassles. Am I wrong?
Last edited by Carlsson3; Aug 27, 2008 at 08:41 PM.
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The cost and time involved in this would eventually surpass the price of the repair. Besides, his total bill would be considered small claims. About all an attorney will do is send a letter to the dealership and charge jimc2004 for that, not cheap. If jimc2004 is lucky, the attorney might even make an appearance on jimc2004's behalf, again, not cheap.
IMO, the Magnusson-Moss warranty act is a load.
It's really this simple :
The dealership has his truck. He can get it back broke, or have them repair it. If he elects the later, then the dealership keeps his truck until he pays the bill. Now poor jimc2004 is stuck not only with the bill for repair, but now has to pay an attorney to draft a letter for small claims court.
Lesson learned is don't mod a vehicle under warranty and expect a dealership to cover major issues. ESPECIALLY these days. There may be some out there that might cover it, but they are far and few between.
IMO, the Magnusson-Moss warranty act is a load.
It's really this simple :
The dealership has his truck. He can get it back broke, or have them repair it. If he elects the later, then the dealership keeps his truck until he pays the bill. Now poor jimc2004 is stuck not only with the bill for repair, but now has to pay an attorney to draft a letter for small claims court.
Lesson learned is don't mod a vehicle under warranty and expect a dealership to cover major issues. ESPECIALLY these days. There may be some out there that might cover it, but they are far and few between.
But I do firmly believe that unless it can be definitively shown that the tuner or any modification I did CAUSED the PCM issue that it should be covered under the warranty. The warranty clearly says that the modification must cause the failure. It does not say that the modification "may have caused" the failure. I will push the issue until there is some proof given that the mod caused the problem. There are many things that it could be. Many of which have nothing to do with mods.
I am going to go in there, and be completely honest (as I have) and try to come to a solution. I will remember that everyone has a supervisor and they probably don't want any extra attention from them.
Also I read that the Auto BBB takes Claims. Does anyone know how effective doing this actually is?
I am not trying to screw anyone or get out of "paying to play". But the fact of the matter is that the warranty is part of the purchase of the truck. We buy the trucks with a given warranty, just like we buy them with a set of tires. I know that statement may sound crazy to some, but its really true. If the warranties said "Modification a, b, and c void warranties x, y, and z" then I would have considered making modifications differently. I am just a guy who believes in doing the right thing and holding up my end of the deal, and I expect others to do the same.
I gave them the OK to fix my truck. If I go in and get nowhere, well them I pay the $1100 and go on my way. But they will also know that they will be getting attention from at least whomever is the supervisor for that dealership as well as well as the Auto BBB. How effective that may be, I don't know. But I will try. I think it is important to remember that everyone has a supervisor and generally they don't want any extra attention from that person. Out of sight - out of mind, is a good thing for most people. In every organization there is a chain of command, and when used properly, good things can be accomplished. This is one of the many great things I learned in the military. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to get the service manager to get in trouble from is boss, who gets heat from his boss, who gets yelled at by his boss. I am trying to solve the problem with the solution that is fair to everyone holding up to their end of the deal. I understand that the service manager is just trying to do his best to filter through the warranty claims, but somewhere down the line (hopefully) someone with Ford actually cares about fulfilling the warranty properly.
And if they can definitively show that my mod(s) caused the issue, well then I say OK and pay the money.
Well anyways, sorry for ranting, if anyone has more advice, it is greatly appreciated.
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From: Sanford, MI
The Edge tuner is a CARB compliant device. Therefore, it doesn't affect the durability of the PCM or the effectiveness of the calibration. It modifies the calibration to optimize the engine parameters. It is no different than reflashing the module at the dealer with a new calibration.
Personally I would wager that the tuner would have more of a durability affect on other components, like the transmission for example. In reality the firmer shifts extend the life of the trans but one could argue that it could be harder on the gear teeth.
Anyway, the MMWA does allow for recovering not only repair costs but lawyer fees as well.
In any case I SERIOUSLY doubt that the tuner caused the problem. I'm leaning toward a bad circuit board (possibly cracked) or contamination in the processor. Most likely it was just a "bad" PCM. It happens. Ford strives for high quality but the reliability figures that they shoot for still "allow" something like one failure mode per million units. Ford will send it to Visteon and have them check it. At least that was what we did when I worked in Ford P/T engineering a few years ago.
Personally I would wager that the tuner would have more of a durability affect on other components, like the transmission for example. In reality the firmer shifts extend the life of the trans but one could argue that it could be harder on the gear teeth.
Anyway, the MMWA does allow for recovering not only repair costs but lawyer fees as well.
In any case I SERIOUSLY doubt that the tuner caused the problem. I'm leaning toward a bad circuit board (possibly cracked) or contamination in the processor. Most likely it was just a "bad" PCM. It happens. Ford strives for high quality but the reliability figures that they shoot for still "allow" something like one failure mode per million units. Ford will send it to Visteon and have them check it. At least that was what we did when I worked in Ford P/T engineering a few years ago.
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Agreed... but I think the user error ratio is even (a lot) higher than that.
