I agree that early maintenance is proper in this case. However,it is completely unacceptable that they charge you $1k+ to fix a problem that was inherent on the vehicle from day one.

I suspect as larger numbers of people get ready to change, Ford will offer the plugs be changed on the 5.4 engine for free, in the name of good PR and trying to keep sales up. Also, you can rest assured that if they do nothing, there will be a lot of used F150s sitting on other dealers lots when the 5.4 owners are ready to get a new truck.

 

I need more info on this extraction tool. Seems near impossible if the plug is broke off inside the head.

When I changed mine at 26K I'm sure I would have broken at least 2 of them if I hadn't used the anti-seize and the in and out technique.

The problem looks more like rust than fuel fouling or carbon build-up. The thing that worries me is if there is already rust inside the plug cylider then how long will it be before the next set is rusted up. 10-15K miles? I tried cleaning mine with a gun cleaning swab but I doubt if it helped much.

 

Why would you pay someone that kind of money when you can buy a tool designed to pull that insert out? I'm sure the tool is a lot less than 3k.










It wasn't broke, until you broke it.

Did the plug stop working prior to you breaking it, trying to remove it?

No?

So, you created a problem by prematurely removing a perfectly good, usable plug........ and you think this is a good idea?

What planet am I on?

 

There's a TSB out there I think from Ford that describes how to properly remove them so they don't break off. The short version of the process is to break them lose (barely), then spray a LITTLE WD40 on them, let sit for 15 minutes (I think), then remove...if they're not coming out, work back and forth (screw then in and out) until they come out.

I think there's also directions on what to do if they DO break off.

I''ll have my truck for another 5 years or so...so I'm going to dread doing this. You can be sure there'll be WD40 involved when I do mine...soak, soak (not too much though). I've already got 43k on it...but it still runs like new and gets the same MPG, so why bother - for now?

 

I am NOT flamming you, just addressing your statments. We are on the same team, really.

FREE? What, if anything, leads you to this conclusion?
Not a shot at you, I really see NO incentive for Ford to do this.

A truck that is out of warranty is a dead truck to Ford.

Or any other maker. See any Vegas around? The engine on the Vega died at 50k but that made it your problem. Or the Pinto gas tanks? Oldsmobile 'diesel' engines? 4.1 Cadillac engines?

Ever see any effort to fix any of those?
Heck, Corvette disk brake calipers went south after 3 years on 1964-1982 Vettes. And that is on all of them.
Chevy never even acknowledged it.
There became a huge aftermarket in stainless sleeved calipers.

Mind you GM knew about the problem, and continued to use the bad calipers for at least 15 years after everyone knew.

Also;

Lots of F-150's on used car lots... How does this hurt Ford? They get to sell you a new car/truck, or you buy from someone else, drive up the price on those and push other people to buy the Fords. Market forces work that way, like it or lump it.

I hope you are right. I would be very pleasantly surprised.

I do not expect them to be a sugar daddy three-five years from now and suddenly fix all the problems. Possibly there will be a large class action suit against them. Don't bet on getting ten cents out of it.

And why worry? It is not that expensive on a 25-50k truck to swap plugs every couple years, and not have the problem.

It's only if you decide “If the advertisement says 100k, then by golly you will get 100k on the plugs" that you have a major problem.

If the tires went bad at 25k, and they were out of warranty, would you insist on driving them till they blew, because the manufacturer said they were good for 60k, or would you replace them before they became dangerous?
Chris

 

You do not seem to know much about engines. Or working on them. If the plugs break off, about one in three or four will drop fragments into the cylinder. You do NOT remove those with 'an extraction tool'. You remove those fragments by removing the head. This is an Overhead Cam vehicle. Costs for removing the head are several times the cost of pulling the head on an OHV engine.
Have someone that understands engines explain it to you...


As to the planet you are on, I have wondered sometimes because of your constant trolling of the plug threads...

Consider that without the plug threads in the various forums, Ford would still be ignoring this problem, and would not have 'invented' the extractor tool...

If enough noise is made about this, Ford may even get off the dime and expedite a better plug. That would make a LOT of people happy.
Chris

 

But Chris, tires are a little bit different, no? While I don't believe the 100k advert, if Ford starts to see problems coming in, they should remove that little "guarantee" from their paperwork. At such time, I bet something will happen.

Also, if they know it's a problem, and don't fix it under warranty, isn't that kind of illegal? Putting off a problem until it becomes profitable for them to fix is absurd. As I said before, the threat of bad PR and lower sales will force them to do something. Do you honestly think they'll ignore this when they may be releasing another new engine in 2-3 years. If this issue isn't resolved, I bet people won't purchase the new motor for fear of it happening to them.

I think part of my problem with Ford just disregarding this issue is that I don't feel competent enough to do this job myself. And since they created an inferior product of this engine with these particular spark plugs, I feel that it is a little ridiculous to have to shell near $1k to fix a problem they created.

Just my thoughts.

 

I think your reasoning is very good, very clear.
I don't agree with your conclusions, but that may be because I am old, cynical, and spent many years working in management for a very big company. Also, unfortunately I have a 'working knowledge of corporate law'.

To break it down, tires are no different from brakes, if you mean safety, and the record is very clear on companies ignoring braking and tire problems till the courts forced them. And often the courts didn't...
And tires/brakes are 'sexy' in the news.
Can't see the Main Stream Media carrying stories about spark plugs...

No bad publicity, no bad press, no pressure to fix them. Page six stuff. Not like' fire burns child' or 'teenager crashes car because of bad tires/brakes'.

No MSM talking head will have his/her career advanced by this problem. Thus it will never be covered.

Ford doesn't ‘guarantee’ the plugs will last even a mile after warranty. It just says they might, should, etc. There are so many weasel words in those kinds of advertisements that they are effectively meaningless. Sad but true.

As to knowing about a problem, and putting off fixing it till it goes out of warranty, totally lawful. No crime there.

You could even prove they knew that they would fail, a complete impossibility to prove, and they still would not have broken the law.
They never intended for it to happen, thus no criminal intent.

Even a cover up would be impossible to prove as long as they do not admit it is a problem.
Corporate CYA is there for a reason. No admission, no crime.

And historically, this kind of error gets forgotten about in a couple years. People still bought Cadillac after the 4.1 debacle. Sales only dropped a tiny amount, and that was for a major problem that affected most Cadillac models not the relatively small amount of Ford products with the 5.4 3Valve.

So while I understand and agree that morally you are right, I suspect it won't matter in the long run.
As I said, I am old and cynical.
I hope I am wrong, and you are right.
Chris

 

Reading about other issues that other manufacturers have had with their vehicles, I believe that you will be right about this one too, Chris.

I guess that it only takes someone that has a knowledge of metals about 5 seconds to realize that aluminum alloy head + iron alloy plugs = reaction. I guess I find it hard to believe, too, that in all the miles of testing that they put these trucks and engines through, as prototypes, that this never came up. I can't believe that.

I hate to say it, but I think you'll be right, and I wrong.

 

I have to agree with Chris on this, however I do believe there will be a new plug to come out that will help with the problem. It probably won't be Ford that comes up with it and it'll probably cost plenty.
The majority of the people will probably take the same attitude as Kool Aid and they probably will let it be someone elses problem when they trade or sale. Matter of fact the majority probably don't ever follow the forums or even do maintenance on their vehicles at prescribed intervals. Thats why those of us who do care about keeping the things we spend our hard earned cash on in good shape don't buy used unless we're just in it as a hobby or project.
I do know one thing. After seeing the plugs for my self(with the help and intuitiveness of this board) I will be checking mine at 15K intervals until a cure comes along.
Bottom line is, Ford will shrug this off as a minor problem with 10% or whatever of the population being affected by it and that is hardly collateral damage in their numbers.

 

Does the planet you live on have vacuum cleaners?

No?

Wait to you get one. They are strong enough to lift bowling *****, and the hose can be reduced down to say......1/2 tubing......so I think a few fragments should be an easy task...........but what do I know, I haven't been trained on engines.

Get someone to explain to you how vacuum cleaners work.

Funny thing.........you are on all these plug threads also.

Does that make you a troll?

 

A vacuum cleaner to pull fragments out of a cylinder.
Gee, why didn't I think of that?


Could it be because that is not the way a vacuum cleaner functions?
There is no air lift from the bottom of a cylinder.
The only possible air intake is from open valves at the top, and is very limited.
I have industrial equipment that can apply over two hundred pounds of pull on a small aperture.

I assure it would have no effect on fragments sitting on the top of a piston in a V engine.

You really do not have any knowledge of engines.


As my father used to say when one of us kids would talk about something we didn't understand "Close your mouth, the stupids shining through".

No, I am not trolling.
I am making hopefully useful suggestions, asking relevant questions and contributing.

You are trolling. You only post to tell whoever works on their truck that they should not.

Look up trolling. After you have someone explain to you why a vacuum cleaner can not pull things up from a piston top through a small aperture with no air flow.

Drink your KoolAid.

(Dang, you do have an appropriate handle. And you don’t troll????)

Chris

 

What the heck are you talking about?

I never said anything about putting the end of the vacuum at the top of the spark plug hole, and trying to create enough suction to pull things out of the cylinder.

Where did you get that stupid idea?

Is that something you tried before?



Are you telling me that you don't think it's possible to stick a small hose down in the spark plug hole, right to the top of the piston, and suck small objects out of the cylinder?

Is that truly your belief?

And you say I have no knowledge? WTF?

I don't have a question if it works or not, because I've done it.


I'm doing the same thing, but my opinion on certain things is different than yours.....so that make me wrong, and you right, and me a troll and you not?

Just because someone disagrees with your point of view, it does not mean they are wrong. If you want to change plugs, then fine...... change them. That doesn't make it right. I don't think you should change them early, and that doesn't make me right, either.

It's an opinion. I have mine, you have yours, and neither one of them is any better than the other.

Don't sit there and B.S. people into thinking you know it all, and that your opinion is the only one that counts....because it doesn't.






How old are you?

Based on this and other threads I think you must be very young. You sound like a child when you start calling people names, and it really shows the level of your immaturity and lack of manners. If you can't make your point without name calling, don't bother trying.

 

LOL KOOL AID - GET BACK TO WORK you crazy f**cker!!!

 

You have not done it. There is no way to put anything down the long skinny spark plug tube on this engine and accurately 'suck' up any metal or ceramic fragments. I have a fiber optic probe and you could not even get that down, around the threads and turns to see the bottom of the cylinder, much less get a viable hose in there.
This is not an old L-head, simple four banger or elephant block where you can see the pistons. Even if you could do it, only a kid or fool would light the engine up, hoping he had all the pieces out. Pulling a head is a lot cheaper than sleeving a cylinder.


Gee all the personal attacks. Thank you for making it clear how much respect you have for people you disagree with.
As to my age, well, I'm retired, but don't let that stop you from saying I'm a kid.
Heck, maybe it's my second childhood. I do waste time on trolls.
Chris