"Engineering is completely about trade-offs. There is no "hidden reserves" for future years. Everything is maximized as it comes".


I don't buy this statement. I believe there are many "known"ways to increase hp and mpg without trading off anything but actually improve engine/product lifecycles. I believe Ford is disincented by their own financial objectives to limit their end product lifecycle and "big oil" to keep these improvements from hitting the market!

Tim

 

How can the aftermarket make more horsepower so quickly and easily???

That is a real simple question actually.

They don't have to meet any of the criteria that the manufacturer does. Plain and simple.

They don't worry about mpg for corporate averages. They don't care if you have to run a higher grade fuel. They don't care if your engine runs trouble free for 150K+ miles. They don't care if it functions flawlessly from 50 below zero to 130+ degrees. They don't care if it runs great from below sea level to 10,000ft+. They don't care if your transmission holds up to the new power. They don't care if the engine is louder, or runs rougher than stock.

Now the biggie............ the only emission care they have is passing the sniff test at the emissions station. This is completely different from what the manufacturer has to deal with............ which is a much more stringent testing process.

As others have said, there are severe tradeoffs that the manufacturer has to contend with. For the few who like a loud agressive (read more free flowing) exhaust, there are 10's of thousands who don't want to hear the engine at all. While a slightly more agressive cam will give more power, it will also cause the engine to run rougher.

This is why Ford is very agressive with the aftermarket. They give preproduction vehicles to the aftermarket so that performance parts are available soon after introduction. This allows the individuals to make their vehicle what they want it to be.......... without burdening the manufacturer with trying to eek out a few hp while staying within all the regulations that they deal with.

For those who complain about the new F150's power, I have a couple of questions for you................
1) Think back 10 years........... did you even imagine back then that the stock engine would put out 300hp???
2) Are you willing to give up that super strong new frame to save some weight so your truck is faster???
3) Are you willing to give up some of the body structure that makes it so safe in crashes, so that your truck is faster???

I'm sure not.

 

Well put.
I am a mechE and dont get me wrong, nothing is ever fast enough, built well enough or exactly the way I like it. I would still be under the hood of this truck even if I had all I could ask for in it. The point is engineering is not as easy as you think. Sure I think that the oil companies are holding back mpg to stay in business. But its not like these Ford engineers sit down over lunch and pull 20 horses out of their a$$. You have a huge number of constraints, checks and balances that must all work out to get this truck out there for a reasonable price. In high volume engines their is always room for more horsepower, but thats not Fords job, they arent selling a dragster or a sedan or a high reving foreign car for that matter. They are selling a strong, offroad, towing, heavy payload, built Ford tough, T-R-U-C-K (that word still missing out of some owners vocabulary).
I would love more horsepower, dual exhaust, throaty sound and stump pulling power but as an engineer I understand Ford put out a damn good engine with great horsepower and package...anything above that is my job.

 

I think we are getting a little off track. Does the 5.4 have more potential for power & fuel economy? YES. Does it come from the factory maxed out? Not bloody likely!

So really why is that? More than likely due to deadlines & resource constraints. Hopefully in the future they will tune 'em up!!!

Are you serious? Tell that to some of the site sponsers! They still have to keep things street legal, or they wouldn't be in biznaz! And many tuners can optimize your engine for REGULAR 87 octane...

Great discussion here guys!

 

They could 4V it and make it 385hp like the Cobra R

 

Ok so what are some of the cheaper things we can do to add more power using aftermarket parts?

Although I agree that I don't want my gas mileage to go down..is it possible to add power and not lose gas mileage?

 

I guess it should be easy to understand. Average Joe comsumer wants the quiet, smooth, tough, powerful, reliable truck. That is what they get with the 04. Now Ford sell better than half a million trucks a year. Even if 10% are gear heads like us, that still leaves more than 450k people that are happy with it the way it is. Simple math, why put the extra cost into a truck that that many people are happy with so a few will be happier. If sales start to fall, or indicate that a tweek is need to maintain sales then that would justify the added cost.
Again, its supply and demand. 450k or more happy customers, verses 50k (based on 10%) that love their trucks but left wanting more. Like Lightening gal said, thats why ford helps support the tuners, its cheaper to please those 10%ers that way, then tack that price on every truck and risk losing sales.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

Sled...

 

Well put sleddogg. I believe the 5.4 is maxed out when it leaves the factory to the point that it meets all the regulations that govern it! It's also easy to understand that if you gain a few horses here, you put a strain on something there unless you also modify everything down the line. This 87 octane thing is a joke, we would all be much better off if we could burn higher octane fuel because its a no brainer that a lower octane rating burns quicker, thus the MPG goes down but oil refiners profits go up! It's all just an economics game much like sleddogg was talking about. Obviously Ford along with all other auto makers have people that watch the market, Ford may have realized there are more "level headed" people in the world that want decent HP/TRQ #'s a VERY nice build quality, etc, etc, but Dodge has realized they can easily capture the smaller % of the market that is "not so level headed" and seeks pwr with a sacarifce for build quality. Chevy I would guess is somewhere in the middle with a decent ratio of pwr and build quality. Who's the best, well I think the number of sold units clearly speaks for itself. Also keep in mind that some of the OTHER auto makers have been known to over rate their engines, while some under rate.

I side with the engineering guys here, I know the pain some of you go through meeting regulations and requirements.

 

It is nice to see that some are trying to see what it takes for the manufacturers to build something.

For every 20 year old "hemi" (I use the term loosely, as those in the know refer to the new engine as a semi-hemi) owner that thinks he has the baddest truck out there........... there is one who is annoyed with the loud exhaust, course engine, and lackluster build quality of the Dodge.

The "hemi" advertising is appealing to those who have the least to spend on a truck............ and that is those who are just entering the market. The seasoned truck buyer knows that there is more to a truck than hp.

As for the gentleman who made mention of the 385 (underrated) hp of the Cobra R engine.............. do you really want your hp and torque peaks to be over 5000rpm in a truck engine???? What works fine in a 3200lb car is not what is optimum for a 5000+ truck that has to tow a load.

I think you will see a large jump in performance of the 3V 5.4 when the 6-speed automatics come out. They should be here for sometime in the '05 model year.............. I believe. (the heavy duty platform will use the 5-speed 5R110 transmission as it is built for heavy abuse. The light duty platform (F150, Expedition) will use a new 6-speed based on the current 4-speed. It will probably use splitter technology similar to what the 5R55E transmission in the Explorers use).

The 5-speed automatic transmission is part of the reason for the Titans good performance.

 

I think it is kind of ridiculous to be questioning IzInBloOm condiering he is an engineer at Ford. I'm not saying he knows everything, but on this subject I would tend to believe him.

I myself am the R&D Manager at a seals company. We sell a lot to the automotive industry including seals in the fuel lines and transmission of the 04 F-150. Tweaking is much easier said than done. All of the reasons have been given above, so I am not going to restate it all, but whether you believe it or not engineering and R&D are all about trade offs. Welcome to the real world.

 

I think Brew's thread was directed at me so I will respond. My comments are really related to the 5.4 being maxed out. I asked the question - if it is maximized as it comes, where do the aftermarket companies find all of the room for improvements?

I think the bigger issue for me is a completely different thread and maybe I'll start it. I don't believe Ford is interested in implementing performance improvement technologies as much as they say they are. I believe if Ford were to put its collective mind to creating the highest performing fuel efficient engine we would be a long way from 300hp and 15 mpg and 200K miles and we could have had it a decade ago!

So I apologize to izinbloom and any others that may have taken offense. Am I the only conspiracy theorist here?

I'll end with a final flare. Ford is incented to produce less than optimum engines by their need to sell replacement trucks and Big Oil kickbacks!

Tim

 

If you feel that it is so easy to produce an engine that makes everyone happy............ gets amazing fuel economy.......... and makes 50 bazillion hp............. and is the smoothest and most emission free engine, feel free to do so.

Just remember to build it within the perimiters of all current, and near future government regulations........... as it is ridiculous to design any engine for only a year or two (you will not recoup your development costs).

We are talking government regulations here............. not local or state (which it also must meet).

Also, remember that it must be the most quiet, most refined, most powerful, and get the best fuel economy.

Sorry to be sarcastic. However, I feel that some (or one) think that there is nothing to building mass produced vehicles in this country. I think that these people need to read up on what a manufacturer deals with on a daily basis. Then read up on what the aftermarket deals with (next to nothing compared to the manufacturer). Only then, can they honestly speak on the subject.

PS, I come from the independent auto repair and towing business (owned for 9 years). I do not even try to fool myself into believing that I dealt with 1/4 the regulations that the manufacturers dealt with............... and it was a major PITA to deal with.

 

It drives me crazy to hear someone excited about a $300 chip can give you 20 extra HP at 5000 RPMs using 93 octane.

Also, there is always a reason why Ford tuned their engines in a certain way. Suppose, all Ford F150 engines were tuned for max performance but it introduced a higher failure rate? Would you be upset if the engine in your truck died after towing your company trailer after only 40K miles?



I think roller coaster manufacturers should build huge and fast roller coasters for MAX performance. Forget about being 'safe' on a coaster, I want speed!

 

If there weren't rules to abide by, it would be simple for Ford to make an engine that had 500 HP at the crank with out much thought. However, ask anyone that has ever built a racing engine and they will tell you that its much easier to build an "illegal" motor than it is to build a "legal" motor.

 

Just to be clear. I have worked with Ford executives and GM executives at the highest levels. I have also had this very same discussion with them - And I am talking about Jack Nasser levels within Ford several years back. So in terms of speaking on the subject I am speaking on it from what I believe is a bit more relavent perspective than a towing company's point of view. And in terms of doing my research, I'd ask you to do some of your own. Do a google search under automotive engine patents, research the patents and then come to your OWN understanding. Ford and Oil Companies buy the "rights to revolutionary combustion engine patents ALL the time.