I have a 2004 F150 Lariat with a 5.4L and just put on a K&N Cold Air Kit, now the truck starts fine but is very rough at idle and even stalls dead. I have double checked all the connections and there was only one air return line to hook to the new pipe. Mass air meter is in the correct direction? not sure what to do now? any help much appreciated

Steve

 

If it isn't an install issue, dirty / contaminated MAF, ait leak, etc, it's likely yer truck is one of those with a pre-existing lean condition that is being compounded by the WAI. Not uncommon for early 3V's... BTW - did you reset the PCM (disconnect neg batt terminal fer a few minutes)?

"We can tune for different cold air intakes on 05+ Mustangs and 04+ F150s. Any aftermarket intake that flows well and puts the slot-style MAF sensor into a larger less restrictive housing is going to REQUIRE a tune for the vehicle to run properly. Intakes that do not require a tune are often just as restrictive as stock and do not result in large power gains".- Justin Starkey - VMPtuning.com

https://www.f150online.com/forums/3536358-post9.html - Bill @ PHP

Advice - remove it to be safe. Either just do the Gotts mod - see tech articles section ( engine): https://www.f150online.com/forums/ar...-articles.html - or get a custom flash programmer to properly support the changes the intake incurs.

See linkies in siggy fer good tuners.

MGD

 

So you recommend not using the K&N and putting the stock back in? what would be a good programmer for this truck, other than this kit it is bone stock

 

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I advise it, yes. But - not quite stock - if you apply the small intake mod I alluded to. Most of the benefit of an aftermarket WAI, but none of the risks - clean air, no potential for MAf contamination from excess oil, lower IAT's, much less expensive, no drone, no tuning correction, etc.

As for tuners - you will need one that offers specific correction for the particular CAI/WAI. Recommend custom tuning - SCT X3 or Gryphon - see sig as stated for links to good tuning shops, hardware, and more info...

In fact - even with retaining the stock intake a custom programmer is by far the best bang/buck. Intakes in general provide very little perf gains, despite the "well-oiled" marketing machine


EDIT - below is a very small sample of the kind of info archived and available via Search on this site - these are excerpts from some posts by Mike Troyer (Troyer Performance), related to intakes, tuning and Air-Fuel effects:


"I will not tell you how this is done, but I will give you a hint - the only place where the PCM is going to warn you of a lean or rich condition is in closed loop, meaning lighter throttle and lighter load conditions, because that is the only time the PCM it looks at the O2 sensors for the purpose of A/F ratio feedback control - the PCM does not look at the O2's for A/F control at heavy throttle, and you are NOT safe driving around only at light throttle without proper tuning. In other words, you could not *possibly* be running lean only at heavy throttle but still be throwing codes - the system simply does not work like that.

Anyway, you need to call us and have us do your tuning to get it done right, my friend. I wish your buddy all the best, but I suggest you have us tune the vehicle.

Best of luck whatever you decide - and by the way - until you do have proper tuning TAKE THAT INTAKE KIT OFF and put the stock intake back on - otherwise you risk engine damage. You are NOT safe just driving it around on light throttle! Your tuner friend should also have told you that, too, by the way.


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Briefly - the answers you have been given in this thread are basically correct - in C/L, the engine is always running at stoich A/F (typically 14.64:1 on pump gas) as the PCM is constantly taking data from the front O2 sensors and adjusting the A/F ratio based on that data. But running at stoich A/F also means the engine cannot tolerate a lot of spark - it runs at stoich A/F as that is the ideal A/F ratio when a lot of power is not needed, to burn all the fuel, best emissions, etc. Then O/L operation is transitioned to at various throttle positions, but typically at heavier throttle - when you need power - and this happens at anywhere from about 60% to 90% throttle or so, depending on the vehicle and it's tuning - that is where the A/F ratio is now determined by the combination of the lookup tables and the MAF sensors transfer function, and is supposed to get significantly richer, and more spark gets added to the motor so it can make more power.

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Well, remember that while the XCalibrator 2 is a much more advanced unit, that has nothing to do with why your vehicle is pinging - which is, I suspect, because it is running dead lean from the factory and that, combined with additional spark advance, could well be causing your problem.

Every single 2005 & up 4.6 F-150 we have ever tuned has run at roughly 15.0:1 A/F in bone-stock trim from the factory - and I personally know of chipmakers who do things like command a far richer A/F than is appropriate as a band-aid to try to remedy that - which is, of course, completely inappropriate. The only way to handle that properly is to do it in the MAF transfer function.

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Yeah, your truck is an excellent example of why we like to get datalogging on vehicles running aftermarket intakes - we actually have to use 3 different transfer functions for the 3.215" AF1, and a couple different ones on the 3.5" so far, as different trucks just react differently.

For example, originally I didn't feel that you would see lean codes on the 3.25 " AF1 MAF TF, when using the 3.5" tube, but you did - oh well, it just goes to show you!!

SO I shot you a tune with our latest MAF TF for the 3.5" AF1, that was the only change, and you can feel the difference. Now as long as in closed loop you are still within the range of adaptive strategy (which stock is typically +/- 30%), then it will correct on it's own, though it will report a lean or rich code well before it runs out of adaptive range, it's just set up conservatively.

However, once you are outside of adaptive range, then in many cases you will notice some changes in response when the MAF TF is closer, as it is now with that tune I shot you.

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NO, I do NOT recommend doing that - yes, it WILL throw of the A/F ratios, especially on those 04-05 4.6 F-150's - it will make them run even leaner than they already run stock - which is pretty darned lean to begin with.

Those newer 4.6 trucks have quite a few problems in bone stock trim with A/F ratios that are terrible (lean), and a very long & slow transition over into open loop even on bone-stock trim as well. In fact, we were actually called in by a major chipmaker to help them with that exact problem!!

So no, do NOT remove that silencer, and do not make any other of what we generally refer to as "shadetree" changes to the air intake tract of those trucks UNLESS you are going to order a custom tune from us AND are going to do the proper datalogging so that we can correct the MAF FT to dial in the A/F's so that the truck runs right. Otherwise you can count on a gross lean condition that the PCM is generally NOT going to warn you about via a CEL on the dash - and it'll run leaner and leaner the more throttle you give it, and the more rpms the engine runs, and the faster the vehicle goes.

The bottom line is, with *any* intake tract change in any 2004 & newer F-150, we strongly recommend doing proper datalogging to see what the effects are, as it's not like the "good old days," which for the F-150 was the 2003 & earlier model year - that has all changed. I know it is tempting to just yank out silencers, yank our hydrocarbon traps, yank out obvious sources of restriction - but you cannot do that, you will throw of the MAF transfer function and end up running very lean with elevated EGT's, and that simply is not worth another 2-3 HP (or even 10 HP!!) to burn up a motor over time.

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If you have seen reports here of CEL's with AF1's, then you also had to have seen at least some of the *numerous* posts here including the highly detailed thread here in just the past 10 days where a number of owners posted how they had to be back and re-do their installations properly, and that took care of the CEL.

Notice how not one single time in any posts you saw where anyone said they got a CEL with the AF1 were there any actual A/F ratios or even fuel trims quoted. No, you cannot depend on a CEL to "protect" you - as we have said hundreds of times here, the 2004 & up F-150 (and some 01-03's) is set up to report lean or rich codes before the engine actually goes lean or rich - the code reporting threshold is tighter than the actual adaptive limits of the PCM. And the systems don't always work very well - their consistency is lacking. We have seen new F-150's run as lean as 19:1 never throw a CEL, and we have also seen many times where they reported a lean condition code when the engine wasn't running lean - as I said above, not once have you seen any actual A/F ratios quoted in the posts you mention, people just say they got a light on their dash - a few will scan for a code and report they got a lean code - and that's it, no actual data, ever. The reality is that without testing the A/F's you can't possibly know if you have a lean or rich condition in O/L.

For example, a number of these vehicles are running 14:1 - 15:1 A/F's bone stock despite commanding 12.0:1 in the O/L fuel tables, and not a single one of them doing that in stock trim has ever thrown a lean code CEL in our experience - while others running well within what the factory commands have thrown CEL's with AF1's installed that should never have thrown a code. We know that only because we actually *test*. That is the simple reality, and while most of these vehicles are OK stock, we do in fact see enough of them running way too lean right off the showroom floor that we feel the A/F's should be tested any time you install any intake kit at this time on any 3V modular engines. It took us a good deal of time to dyno enough vehicles in bone-stock trim (most of the vehicles we dyno are not stock) before we could accumulate enough statistical data to identify and be concerned about that trend - and it takes dynoing hundreds of vehicles in bone-stock trim to come to that conclusion, which is why we didn't start saying that we feel all 2004 & up F-150's should have the A/F's tested with ANY intake kit installed until just a couple of months ago.

I realize you won't see what we see, as we are professional tuners and thus see & know far more about how these systems are designed and how they actually work in the real world than most "average" vehicle owners in general - just like I wouldn't have a *clue* how to do root canal work, or how to be an architect, and probably couldn't do whatever you do for a living! So just FYI, I would suggest forget thinking that a CEL is going to "protect" you and/or always properly warn you, or not come on when it shouldn't, etc,, as it just cannot be counted on to do that.

I really don't care what intake kit you get, it's your vehicle - as long as you are happy with what you got, that is all that matters. Notice that not once did I attack your K&N intake kit as you went after the AF1 -

One important fact you'll want to know about check engine or service engine soon lights is that they are to be lit only when the emissions are at least 50% above allowable limits for a certain number of drive cycles - and that too, does not work with real consistency. Some conditions never throw a CEL that should, and we see numerous CEL's that should not be thrown that are - Just for one rather dramatic example, we have seen cases where the owner did something dumb like remove their catalytic converters to pollute the air for everyone else just to get another 3-5 HP, and the PCM never threw a code at all - and that is a serious emissions issue.

We happen to give a damn about the owners of these vehicles - I couldn't care less than you bought a K&N intake kit instead of an AF1, it's not my vehicle, and people can buy K&N kits from us as well - I was simply trying to help you, just as we help many other people

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*strongly* recommend that you have the A/F ratios tested on that vehicle with any intake kit on it - even in bone-stock trim, some of the 2004 & up F-150's run *very* lean from the factory, not doing what they are supposed to, and that can be very dangerous.

DO NOT ever take any manufacturer's word that your truck will be safe without doing A/F ratio testing, as you may very well find that it's not - in fact, there are only 2 intake kits we have seen that even have the potential for not needing retuning, and even then, on some trucks they still need the A/F's corrected.

Nobody has dyno'd or datalogged or tuned as many F-150's as we have - not K&N (who has a policy that only requires testing on 3 vehicles before shipping new products, by the way - that is nowhere near enough with the 2004 & up F-150, or any 3-valve Ford engine vehicle, for that matter), not anyone - other than maybe Ford Motor Company themselves. And I can tell you first hand that this is one thing you do NOT want to take for granted.

Once you get your intake kit installed, get to a chassis dyno and have the A/F's tested - you are just as likely to be surprised to see that it is *not* running the 12.0:1 A/F's that Ford commands in every single 2004 & up F-150 as you are likely to see that it does - it's just as likely to be hitting 14-15:1, as we see that in many cases - even in bone-stock factory showroom trim. In fact, Marc Carpenter's truck, the gentleman who responded to you above, was one of them - his truck ran 14.2:1 in STOCK trim.


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The smart thing to do would be to actually datalog the vehicle - as I'm sure you know from seeing many of my posts, the 2004 & up F-150 (and a number of 2001-2003's, too) set lean and rich codes LONG before the engine actually goes rich or lean, because the code reporting threshold is tighter than the adaptive range of the PCM - and that we have also seen engines running as lean as 19:1 never throw a lean code!

What needs to be done to properly diagnose this is to have the vehicle datalogged/tested to see if it's actually running lean, and if so, by precisely how much so that it can be corrected in tuning. And if you are concerned about needing to take a trip right now, simply put the stock intake kit back on for your trip, and then deal with this properly when you get back - it only takes 10-15 minutes to swap out the intake.

By the way - in the 2004 & up 5.4 3V F-150, the IAT sensor is an integral part of a far smaller MAF sensor design that uses no traditional meter housing, and cannot simply be pulled out. Nor can anyone just "rotate" an air meter on that truck, as there is no traditional air meter housing that can be rotated - nor would it be wise to rotate that on an older vehicle that does have that kind of design in an attempt to get a CEL to go away.

The proper way to diagnose this is to first, know what is actually happening - what are the fuel trims at numerous points in closed loop, and what are the Air/Fuel ratios in Open Loop - then you will actually know if the engine is running rich or lean. You cannot always depend on a dash light to tell you that accurately. See, "Check Engine" or "Service Engine Soon" lights are designed to come on only when the vehicle exceeds it's allowable emissions level by more than 50% for a certain amount of time (drive cycles) - it's not there to "protect" you against a lean or rich condition, so just keep that in mind.

The hot tip would be to have a good custom tune done so you can get the most out of the intake kit if your vehicle is actually running rich or lean - or if you have a tune, have it adjusted by providing your tuner with proper datalogging info. Most likely, if it is actually running lean, it was also running lean before that intake kit ever went on, it just didn't throw an MIL - that is a characteristic we have seen in many of the 5.4 3V F-150's by the way, especially in 2004's.

If you do not want to do the proper datalogging so that custom tuning can be done, then contact the manufacturer directly to have them send you one of their 3" (internal) tubes once you get back from your trip.

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With regard to the Airaid MIT (or Airaid Junior as some call it), we have seen both scenarios - we have seen where it *does* affect the A/F's, and then we've seen it not affect the A/F's - and I believe that this is simply a matter of when it was made (and no, don't ask me for production dates or dates of changes, I don't' know them ion the MIT). In other words, the "newer" Airaid's & MIT's generally do not require any changes to the tuning, whereas the older units (going back at couple of years) did tend to lean the engine out and thus require correction - so that's the best answer I can give you.

For example, if we were to sell someone an Airaid or an MIT & tuning right now, we would not do anything different to the tuning due to either of those parts, they are pretty stable now. And while the full Airaid kit does add some nice power (primarily down low), personally I would not to the MIT - it was originally designed to help those getting CEL's with the full kit to have something to give them a little bit more power and not have a CEL.

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Those so-called emissions "tests" that only scan for codes are garbage - without sniffing the tailpipe and doing the visual, you have no way of knowing whether a vehicle is actually polluting or not - period. Anyone that thinks today's emissions "tests" have any validity with regard to actually determining whether or not any given vehicle is actually polluting simply doesn't know how this actually works, or about how easy it is to take a polluting vehicle and make it sail right thru that kind of "test." Additionally, it's also true that numerous vehicles throwing "emissions" codes are still in fact NOT polluting at all, and can be well *under* the allowable emissions for their model year! For one relevant example, in these very F-150's there are some of them that will throw a lean or rich code while they are not in fact lean or rich, while the PCM is still well within it's capability to achieve stoich A/F in closed loop - because they are set up to report a code long before the limits of adaptive have been reached."

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MGD