Guys,

I have read all the rough idle threads and still don't have a good handle on what could be causing the intermittent rough idle I'm experiencing on an 05 Expedition 5.4L w/100K miles.

Background:

Truck has run great since '05. Has always had a slight rough idle, but that was just the normal 5.4 idle. Changed plugs at 96k (Autolite HT-Revolution HT-1's [all 8 successfully removed using 1/8 turn + Seafoam spray and 30 min soak before full extraction]. Reset of computer on plug change caused a slight drop in idle on restart, but idle through full throttle was smooth as a kitten. (reset of the computer also cured the auto trans stutter under load at low rpm [lockup converter stutter])

At 99k, small heater hose leak soaked passenger side bank of COP's and rough idle developed coupled with slight stutter coming off the line. The hose was replaced and there was no immediate difference in the idle. A few days later, after an oil change, I was sitting in a drive through idling and the idle suddenly got rough. Not a full dead miss rough, but immediatly rougher like one of the COPs went to 1/2 power and was only partially firing one of the plugs. I removed all COPs and boots, inspected the boots (no cracks, all soft/flexible), cleaned/dried boots with compressed air and paper towel and used compressed air and gun-cleaning rod with swab tip to fully dry all plug recesses in the valve covers. Air dried from another 30 min. There were only a few drops of moisture on the 1st plug boot on passenger side and a drop in the plug well. Plug 2 on the pass side had a drop in the upper boot between the seal rings on the boot but none in the plug well. Plugs 3 & 4 on pass side were completely dry.

Reassembled and restarted and all seemed well (for 1st start after reset). Once the engine reached operating temp, the rough idle appeared again, but the stutter between 700-900 RPM was much less than before the dry out, but it was still present. Engine operation from 900 RPM+ is smooth, but there seems to be a slight loss of power/performance. Oddly, idle in gear is smooth. Idle in park/neutral is where the roughness is most pronounced. The rough idle at times seems bad enough to be a dead miss, but a slight increase in RPM smooths out the problem. (I can tell a 'dead miss' at any RPM - so that's not the case here)

The bizarre part of this is that the rough idle seems to get worse when the vehicle is facing up a slight incline (like parked in a driveway). I can't make heads or tails of this symptom. It's not my imagination, but I just can't think of any way a slight incline would be relevant to a rough idle unless there is somewhere water can collect and only be picked up in the fuel system when the vehicle is inclined. (although that would also be consistent with the slight stutter between 700-900 RPMs when accelerating from a dead stop)

I have checked all the wiring leading to the cam position sensors and crank sensor and all are OK. The intake was cleaned and the (MAF/MAP?) sensor on the inside upper driver-side of the housing is clean. Throttle position sensor seems to be fine and doing it's job controlling idle RPM between Park/Drive and air On/Off.

There is no light on. I took the truck to the Ford dealership and had them run diagnostics. There are no codes and none of the COPs were shown as bad. Ford can't explain it and wants more shop time to further pull plugs and "make sure the Autolite HT-Revolution HT-1 plugs are compatible with the ignition system" (WTF?? you're kidding right?). Dealership could not explain the rough idle, but easily confirmed the issue.

Help Needed:

So this is kind of where I'm stuck. There is obviously an issue with the idle in Park/Neutral noticeable when the car is at operating temp. On cold-start there is no issue at all. Even when the idle steps down from high-idle to normal after the first minute or two of warm-up. After driving for 10 minutes or so, when you put the car back in park, the rought idle will appear within 5-10 seconds of the shift into park. Other than the slight stutter when accelerating from dead-stop, the vehicle seems to run fine. There seems to be a slight loss of power throughout the RPM range, but it is 107 outside in Texas today!

So what could possibly be causing this strange set of idle symptoms? What to try next? I'm out of guesses, so I thought I would tap the brain-trust here and see if someone had an idea. So what say the gurus?

 

If the MAF and throttle body have not been cleaned, I would do so. And, how many miles on the fuel filter? After eliminating those, I hate to say it, I would suspect sparkplugs. Won't be the first set of Autolites that didn't work out. These engines love the Motorcrafts.

 

Read this >>> https://www.f150online.com/forums/v8...ram-07m08.html

And follow what Bluejay said......

Might also research vct's

What oil brand/weight/filter are you using?

 

I'm betting on some cops starting to go. The ONLY way to completely test a cop is on a test bench.

Buy a whole set for less than 2 OEM's -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-I...item588ee4e8b9

 

Bluejay, 88racing and GLC all have good advice.

It sounds like..... A few possibility's:
1) A leaky Fuel injector- 05's are well known for this issue.
2) Fuel Filter- replace every 15-20K.
3) COP's - They will test good until put under a load.
4) Small Vacuum leak- get out the starting fluid.
5) Plugs- I know it's a pain but some go bad after as little as 10K
6) Pull the VCT solenoids and check the screens
7) MC oil filter and DO NOT over fill - too much oil can cause this problem!

 

Thanks Bluejay, 88racing, glc and Scooterdog,

Holy .... Scooterdog you NAILED it with (7). I cannot believe the utter incompetence of the Pennziol 10 Min Oil Change Shop in Nacogdoches. During the oil change, those idiots never drained the oil pan. Evidently, they just changed the filter and pumped another 6 quarts of oil into the top. After loosening the drain plug 3 turns and waiting 30 minutes, the oil level dropped back to full. Re-tightened the drain plug and started the expedition and it idles like a kitten again.

THE HUGE QUESTION I NEED ANSWERED IS:

"How much damage was done to the engine by running it 5.5 quarts high for 207 miles?"

This is a biggie. Obviously, they get to change the oil again and pick up the tab for the Ford diagnostics, but is there any lasting damage -- or -- are there other tests that should be run now to determine if additional damage has been caused by the FU?

I will have a sit down with the Pennziol tomorrow morning after I'm done with a 9:00 and have a chat with them about the situation. What issues should I be concerned about?

Again - many thanks to all -- and I still cannot believe this... and I still cannot believe the diagnostics at Ford never caught it?

 

They forgot the dipstick diasgnostic, the one that doesn't require a computer. That's sad but not suprising. The oil level sensor would only fault if the oil was low not to high.

As far as damage goes it is possible. I would just get it documented in writing that they failed to drain it. That way there on the hook moving forward for any failure that was caused by oiling issues in the next 10K or something like that.

 

Thinking through the symptoms, now it makes sense that the idle would get worse when the car was parked on an incline or the stutter on accelerating from a dead stop. The rear cylinder skirts were probably hitting the over-full oil surface level in both instances. There is no doubt the oil wiper rings got one hell of a workout, but as long as the crank wasn't trying to pull the piston skirt fully down into the oil bath, the wrist-pin stresses shouldn't have been too off-scale high. The PCV valve probably worked at 300% volume given the reduction in air space, but I'm not too concerned about that. I don't know if the 5.4L has some sort of windage tray in the pan, but if so, that would have minimized the mid-cylinder oil exposure during turns, etc... Crank lobes probably got a good oil bath, but can't see where that would manifest further damage to the crank, although the valley was probably flooded with slung oil during that time.

Really weird issue to have to think through... but in doing so, you can really see how the massive oil overfill fits perfectly with the original symptoms. Wish I had an exploded view of how the short-block with pan fits together. It might really help in analyzing what areas could have been affected.

Thanks again for all your help, and if anybody else knows of some specific areas that can be damaged by an oil overfill, please don't hesitate to share. Seems documenting the overfill is a good call. Thanks.

 

Some of the people who work at those places should have been evangelists,
because some of the stuff they do makesyou want to say...JESUS CHRIST...

 

Datty,

My first guess on any possible long term issues would be the cats. The PCV system does have an oil baffle but it was never designed to handle that much oil. The cylinders had to ingest a larger volume of atomized oil then normal. This mostly burned oil had to go through your cats. The next issue is your PCV. it is not serviceable as it's integrated into your intake manifold. IF it goes bad, you'll need a new intake. The oil pan does have a large amount of baffles to help control the oil, but with 55 gallons of crude in the pan, i don't know how much help they were.

Electron-Jack was 110% correct. Document the error and make sure they know they are the hook for any issues.

 

Thanks! The documentation I can handle... "datty" = "david attorney" (see: rankinlawfirm.com It just never fails... For 20 years I changed my own oil for just this very reason. I finally get to the point where I'm willing to let someone else do it... and sure enough I'm bitten just like everyone else. Sad state of affairs in the old U.S.A., when an oil change specialty shop is no longer competent to... change oil... (evangelical situation -- no doubt!)

 

Dumb **** oil jockeys.....

Makes a person wonder......

I always check the vehicle after its oil has been changed by someone else and I check it right in front of them.....

I also mark a date on the oil filter......I've seen some of those quick lubes just clean off the old filter and not change it.....

 

To Pit Stop's credit, they owned up to the issue immediately, signed the acknowledgement, completely serviced the vehicle again and reimbursed me immediately for the cost of the diagnostics at the Ford dealership. From all indicatioins (including detailed inspection of the oil drained and the magnetic drain plug), it looks like any immediate damage was avoided.

The amazing part is I simply cannot believe a 5.4L will run 6 quarts high without self-destructing immediately. The rough idle in neutral must have been the result of the piston skirt slap on the oil surface. When in gear the 150 RPM drop must have been enough that the impact from the piston slap on the surface wasn't nearly as noticable. Over 900 RPM the oil pump volume must have been enough to force enough oil to the top of the engine to eliminate the slap -- or -- splash enough of the over-fill out of the way to minimize any impact vibration.

However, checking the fuel milage calculation, milage had dropped from 14.6 to 10.1, so the engine was working harder to turn over through all that oil.

Thanks again for everyones input. If anything ever surfaces, I'll update this thread. It really has a great laundary list of rough-idle symptoms/fixes. It's sure to be a keeper!

 

There was another member, a lady, that had her engine hydrolock. You were just lucky.

 

Wouldn't all the seals now be of concern with that much oil? Possible premature failure.