You are 100 percent correct, Labnerd, in all your posts. Sure, there are some circumstances where a short warmup is advisable but if a person lives in an area where super-cold starts are a daily occurance, if they truly care about their engine, they'll be using block and pan heaters. That's the answer to all problems from all angles. That and the correct grade of oil for the climate. I see long warmups as a waste of fuel.

Not sure why this thread had to get so nasty, especially when it's directed at a guy who adds a lot to the forum and who know whereof he speaks.

 

You must be assuming everyones vehicles come standard with broken rings or something. Yes your truck will warm up quicker if you drive away sooner. Yes you will waste more gas if you warm it up for longer. No one is arguing any of that logic. Look at that post above from a guy who warms up. Should the readings not be full of fuel and water? Apparently no one here is allowed to be concerned or ask questions about the information on these forums.

 

Not to mention the fact that a properly operation PVC system will effectively eliminate all blow-by anyways. In a mechanically sound engine I just dont see how warming up for 31 or 59 seconds is going to destroy an engine. You guys are trying to make it seem like if you let your engine idle for a second after the RPMS drop you are going to have trouble. I didnt agree or disagree with the people saying they warm up for 5-10 minutes. In fact I disagree with that as much as you.

 

Thanks. Everyone I know up here idles for way more than 60 seconds. I started our work truck today and it was a solid 3 minutes before the high idle died down. All dealers install block heaters also, and I've installed an oil pan heater on my truck.

Technically Alaska is "Severe Duty" and oil should be changed every 3000mi, I'm pushing the limit at 7500 winter miles, as evident by the excess aluminum and iron (cylinders and pistons)

 

Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit BJ. I am not assuming anything nor am I arguing any of the logic. I do not know why you chose me to argue with as we seem to agree with most of the thread. The only thing you have wrong is disputing the facts that Labnerd posted. If you drive short trips without allowing your engine to get to full temp you can get fuel dilution. Fact.

 

If idling kills engines,,, shouldn't the world be filled with dead police cars/service vehicles with very low mileage????

 

OK, so your UOA is from an engine that uses a block and pan heater? If so, you submitted a ringer into this arguement. (note smiley... trying not to add to the bitter tone of this thread)

Plus, even if it's not, one or two UOAs doesn't necessarily make the point conclusively. But, no matter what, if you are using a block heater and pan heater up there, you are a smart man.

Anyway, I think there are way too many blanket statements being made in this argument. Warmup duration is a highly variable thing, isn't it? If your engine is in sub zero conditions, cold-soaked and the lubricants are like honey, you need to warm up long enough to get some oil flow. This is where appropriate choices in viscosity are important. But once you have lube flow, the warmup process is very slow idling, so you are better off driving away easily and doing a "dynamic" warmup. Plus you are just wasting fuel idling, especially considering the engine is much slower to go into closed loop and out of cold enrichment mode.

All the potential lubricant problems noted by Labnerd are factual. The effects are cumulative and apply by degrees. Modern EFI engines are less effected because of the way the EFI trims fuel, but if we were talking carbureted engines, or old, numb FI engines, the problems were much worse and I'm old enough to have experienced them. I lived and worked in Vermont back when and lots of people did long idle warmups there. I drained oil in the winter that smelled like it was half gasoline from that. Not good. Thing was, at -45F, and old '80s/80 era oil formulations, the oil barely flowed! The rockers on my old Land Rover used to squeak on those cold starts and you had to wait a while just to get some oil flow. This California boy got a bang-up edumication about viscosity and synthetic oil working on cars in Vermont.

Warmup at 40F, ore thereabouts, on the other hand, is a total waste. Start, stabilize oil pressure and go. Under 30 seconds.

Clearing the windows is an important aspect but I'll put the "wuss" card down for anyone who will waste gas and induce wear on their truck just so thy can get into a warm cab. (Again note smiley!)

So my bottom line to this, paraphrasing the late, great Camel Trophy Credo;

"Warmup interval should be as long as necessary, but as short as possible."


BTW, akcowboy, I have listed my UOA, same oil, same miles interval, practically the same truck, below for comparison to yours. My time interval is lots longer but I live in a rural area where we have a true, white-stuff winter (not comparable to AK, but...) and I DON'T warm up and I don't have block or pan heaters. I just let the flare subside (cat warmup process, but I hate it) and drive easy. I don't necessarily contend my UOA adds any more gravitas to my side of the argument than yours does on your side, but I am interested to compare our two trucks more than anything. I posted mine on BITOG sometime back and they howled about my high iron. Yours would send them into convulsions but, in reality, neither are alarmingly high. BTW, I always submit a virgin sample from the same batch, which gives me a better comparison. I'm on a 10K interval with this oil now. Another UOA soon.

Properties
Virgin/7500 mile OCI (Same batch)

'05 F-150HD, 5.4L V8, 18,966 miles
Lab: WearCheck
Motor Oil: RP 5W20
OCI: 7463 mi/14.5 months
Makeup Oil: 0
Oil Capacity 7 qts.
Oil Filter: MC FL820S

Silicon: 0/19
Potassium: 8.5/5/1
Sodium: 7.1/15
Fuel %: 0/<2%
Glycol: 0/0
Water: <0.1/<0.1
Sulfation: 0/23% of max
Nitration: 0/16% of max
Boron: 14/5.9
Barium: 1.3/0
Calcium: 2524/2280
Magnesium: 1252/1164
Moly: 170/118
Phosphorus: 872/825
Zinc: 862/908
Vis @ 40C: 50.83/--
Vis @ 100C: 9.31 cSt/8.9 cSt
VI: 168/--
Oxidation:0/27 % of max
TBN: 13.6/10.0
Iron: 3.7/28
Nickel: 0.5/0.5
Chromium: 0/1.7
Titanium: 0/0.2
Copper: 0.1/4.4
Aluminum: 1.3/5.3
Lead 1.4/0
All other values: 0

 

Yeah, but A) they are usually already warmed up and B) many of them are in warm climates. If you sorted out the ones used in very cold weather, you'd probably see more trouble.

 

I completely agree, which is why my engine gets warmed up

You made some excellent points, which I totally agree with. I think of chilly when it gets below freezing and cold when it's below 0, whereas some southern folk think its cold if its below 60

Also, if it's getting below freezing on a regular basis and you don't have a block heater you are an idiot. plain and simple. Like I said, that is a dealer installed feature up here, not an option, they just do it

Your oil analysis is pretty interesting. All the values are comparable to mine, but your Al and Fe are a lot better. The last year I had a 5mi commute in below 0 weather for 9 months (School at the University of Alaska Fairbanks) and I know that was detrimental to my motor and increased the engine wear. Whats the website you speak of, link?

 

BITOG is an oil nerd website. Rather than cause angst with this website's operators over linking to a competitor, I will just ask you to Google it. Very large site. Used to be full of lubricant industry professionals but is now somewhat dominated by "my oil's better than your oil" kinda folks but still worth looking at. You can learn a lot if you can wade through the brand partisanship issues. Kinda like any forum, I guess. Get yourself lost in looking at the older posts. thats where you will find many of the gems there.

To address the broader audience here, I think people need to be clear that we are not talking about idling so much as idling to warm up the engine. Idling a warmed up engine is not ideal, necessarily, but it's not generally harmful. Especially to a EFI engine. Warming up an engine that way is far less ideal, as is short hopping an engine. That's where you need a shorter OCI to compensate.

 

So the best thing to do if you really care about your truck is get a block heater or keep it in a garage when the weather is really cold. Sorry Norm I think I was reading a little too fast. I apologize for arguing with ya for no reason.