400-351.... - F150online Forums

400-351....

  #1  
Old 02-20-2007, 01:38 PM
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400-351....

My friend just bought a 77 F150 4wd. And after about 4 hours of fun in the snowy mud, it started to bog down, and backfired a few times. So we get it back to his house, just as it stalls out on his drive way. We popped the cap off the distributor, and noticed some freeplay back and forth. We proceeded to pull the distributor out, and found some of the teeth off the gear had been broken right off. So we drop the pan and pull the oil pump, which is seized quite good. But the funny thing is it twisted the pump drive shaft right up. So we have a buddy bring us over one of his spare 400 oil pump shafts, which we noticed right away to be about an inch longer than the one we have.

Now, I had heard somewhere sometime ago that a 351's oil pump shaft is shorter than the 400. I'm kind of guessing that the guy he bought the truck off didn't and doesn't quite know what engine he had in it. But is there any truth to that little bit of knowledge?
 
  #2  
Old 02-20-2007, 04:15 PM
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The answer to you situation is always dangerous for me to comment on.
Do you know what engine you have?
Do you know what the differences are between a 351w, a 351c and a 400m.?
It's to late now to guess.
Have part numbers checked for the engine you have and get the right one or there won't be anymore fun with the truck.
Broken teeth, 1" differences etc are not where it's at.
Good luck.
 
  #3  
Old 02-20-2007, 07:39 PM
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I'm taking the parts in for him tomorrow. For some odd reason the guy at the shop wants the distributor there as well.

I was wondering what some of the common differences are between the 351, be it a W or a C and the 400. One of those differences being the difference in the oil pump shaft length. I'm going to pull numbers off the block tonight. Are there any good decoding websites for ford motors?
 
  #4  
Old 02-20-2007, 07:52 PM
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351 Windsor is a small block not available for that year ford. 351 Cleveland is a big block and 400 Modified is also a big block. Most common for that year is the 300 Straight Six and 351 Cleveland.
More stuff you should know
http://www.fordcobraengines.com/Modified%20History.htm
 

Last edited by aFewScrewsLoose; 02-20-2007 at 07:56 PM.
  #5  
Old 02-20-2007, 08:59 PM
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351 Windsor is a small block not available for that year ford. 351 Cleveland is a big block and 400 Modified is also a big block. Most common for that year is the 300 Straight Six and 351 Cleveland.
More stuff you should know
______


NOT!! The 351C is NOT a big block. Nor is the 400 acording to some... that is debatable. The engines availible in 1977 F-150's were the 300 ci 6 cylinder, the 351M and the 400. The oil pump drive shaft should be the same in the 351M and 400. Of course a truck this old, it is anybodies guess what engine is in there now.
 
  #6  
Old 02-20-2007, 09:03 PM
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dont forget the 460, i have one
 
  #7  
Old 02-21-2007, 12:38 AM
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a 460 in a F-150??? dunno about that.. unless it was put in there later!
 
  #8  
Old 02-21-2007, 01:52 AM
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Question AS I recall...

engine families:

351W (Windsor)

351C (Cleveland)

351M and 400M (Modified) (meaning a modified Cleveland) I believe these share the same Distributor driveshaft from the pump....

https://www.f150online.com/galleries....cfm?gnum=9276
 
  #9  
Old 02-21-2007, 02:01 AM
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The 351M and 400M have the same length oil pump shafts. I have a 351M block in my 78 Bronca and i have 400M parts in it, which include a HV oil pump and shaft. I also installed the crank out of a 400 and bored it out .060 over to get it up to about 415 cu in. My truck aint good for nuthin but the mud and trails.
 
  #10  
Old 02-21-2007, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by chris1450
351 Windsor is a small block not available for that year ford. 351 Cleveland is a big block and 400 Modified is also a big block. Most common for that year is the 300 Straight Six and 351 Cleveland.
More stuff you should know
______


NOT!! The 351C is NOT a big block. Nor is the 400 acording to some... that is debatable. The engines availible in 1977 F-150's were the 300 ci 6 cylinder, the 351M and the 400. The oil pump drive shaft should be the same in the 351M and 400. Of course a truck this old, it is anybodies guess what engine is in there now.

The Cleveland is for sure a big block. You can put the heads on a windsor, and they have the same small block bell housing as a Windsor, but it is still classified as a big block. Put it beside a 351W and look at the difference. I have and it will make you feel stupid.
 
  #11  
Old 02-21-2007, 09:40 AM
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More than you ever wanted to know about these engines. Sorry about the tabs - I couldn't post an attachment, so I lost some of the formatting in the translation. Also, I had to delete a lot of data due to size restrictions on posts in this forum.

ENGINES

The Ford V-8 Engine Workshop
351 Cleveland Family
351C, Boss 351, 351 CJ, 351M, 400
With its free breathing large port canted valve head design and rugged block, the 351 Cleveland was an engine designed to make real horsepower. The 351C was used very successfully in NASCAR and drag racing. The 400 engine has a longer stroke, and higher cylinder deck. The 351M shares this taller block with the 400.
351 Cleveland Family
The Cleveland family engines are easily identified. The water outlet sits vertically on the top of the block. The distributor leans slightly to the passenger side. The cylinder heads are large, thick in the direction between intake and exhaust flanges. The valve cover mating surface is fairly rectangular, with 8 attaching bolts. The timing chain is contained within a cavity in the block. The cover is a flat plate behind the water pump.
Cleveland Family Cylinder Heads:
The Cleveland design cylinder heads are the real trick to the engine's performance. Several versions exist. Monsterous ports are found on the four barrel (4V) variety giving very high flow capacity on an all out race motor. Somewhat smaller ports on the 2V version result in increased low-end torque, perhaps better suited to today's street applications. The combustion chambers were made in closed chamber quench shape, and also in a lower compression open chamber style. Engines designed for hydraulic lifter camshafts use slotted rocker arm pedestals, for non-adjustable rockers. These slots maintain the pushrod alignment. 1971 Boss and 1972 High Output engines featured mecahnical lifter camshafts with flat pedestals for adjustable rocker arms and pushrod guide plates. These heads also have machined valve spring seats for use with mulitple coil valve springs. The high performance heads utilize single groove valve stem locks. Australian heads come in even more variety.
4-barrel heads may be identified by the casting mark at the upper corners of the valve cover mating surface. Australian heads (at least the ones I've seen) and Boss 302 heads do not have these marks.

4-bolt Mains
4-bolt main bearing caps are used to support higher horsepower and continued high speed operation.
These are found on:
R-code Boss 351, 1971
R-code 351 HO, 1972
Q-code 351 CJ, 1971-73
While the 4-bolt main caps are found on only some of the 351C-4V engines, all 351C blocks are cast with provisions to accept the caps. The registration saddle is machined the same wide size as the 4-bolt engines. The supporting bulkheads are the same as the 2-bolt blocks, allowing the extra holes to be drilled and tapped.
________________________________________
351C vs. 351M
The 351M is sort of a hybrid between a 351C and the 400. The 351C and 351M have the same bore and stroke - 4.00" x 3.50" (also shared by the 351W and the 352). The 351C, 351M, 351W, and all other small blocks share the same bore spacing and cylinder head bolt pattern. Cleveland style heads were first used on the 1969 Boss 302.
The 351M has the higher deck block of the 400. This makes the engine wider and heavier than a 351C. As a result, 351M has longer connecting rods.
The 351M uses the larger 351W / 400 sized crankshaft journals. Stronger in the heavy duty truck sense, but more friction for performance applications at high RPM.
351C 351M 400 351W

Deck height 9.206" 10.297" 10.297" 9.503"*
Rod length 5.780" 6.580" 6.580" 5.956"
Main journal 2.749" 3.000" 3.000" 3.000"
Rod journal 2.311" 2.311" 2.311" 2.311"
Compression Height 1.647" 1.947" 1.647" 1.769"

* 1969/70 351W deck is 9.480"
The 351C was available with both 2-barrel and 4-barrel heads, with very different port sizes. The 4V size was the choice for high performance builders in the '70s. The 351M is available only with the smaller port, 2V heads. These are more practical on a street engine where low end torque is desired.
The 351C uses the Small Block (289/302) bellhousing bolt pattern. The 351M and 400 use the Big Block (429/460) bellhousing bolt pattern, with the exception of a fairly rare 1973 block.
All 351C blocks can be machined for 4 bolt mains.
The 351M/400 uses thinner wall block so isn't as strong after an overbore, and more prone to overheating.
351M/400 blocks cast at Michigan Casting Center before March 1977 had casting problems, resulting in cracking of the water jacket inside the lifter gallery. Blocks with date codes of 7C01 or later should be OK.
Cleveland family engines use a distributor that will physically interchange with those of the 429/460 big block.
 
  #12  
Old 02-21-2007, 10:19 AM
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Change your oil pump, pump shaft, oil pickup tube, and distributor and you should be ok. Might as well do the plugs and wires while your at it

I rebuilt a 460 for my jet boat not to long ago and the pump shaft was twisted also. I'm not sure why maybe the centrufugal force on the pump and distubutor or maybe one of them was locked up. Ford racing makes a good one now that has a round metal sleeve on the shaft. Thats what Im using, just look through summit or jegs.
 

Last edited by gregerm; 02-21-2007 at 10:22 AM.
  #13  
Old 02-21-2007, 11:23 AM
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if it helps fordracing sales a pump shaft for the 351m - 400m and 351 cleveland all with the same part number. hot rod

the 460 was an option in the f150 from 73 til 79.
 
  #14  
Old 02-22-2007, 12:53 AM
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but it is still classified as a big block. Put it beside a 351W and look at the difference. I have and it will make you feel stupid.
____

so your basing the clevland being a big block because of the physical size??? so the mod motor 4.6 and 5.4 must be super big blocks. The bore spacing and engine mount location and small block bell housing pattern make the clevland a small block period.
 
  #15  
Old 02-22-2007, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by chris1450
but it is still classified as a big block. Put it beside a 351W and look at the difference. I have and it will make you feel stupid.
____

so your basing the clevland being a big block because of the physical size??? so the mod motor 4.6 and 5.4 must be super big blocks. The bore spacing and engine mount location and small block bell housing pattern make the clevland a small block period.
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