2008 F150 Trans and Transfer case rebuild questions
 

I recently picked up a 2008 F150 XLT 4x4 5.4L with 91,000 miles from a buddy of mine. While he was driving down the highway, the transmission extension housing (that connects the transfer case to the trans) apparently broke in half and caused the transfer case to shift back and fall off of the trans output shaft. The drive shaft slip yoke also had the holes elongated, probably from the severe angle of the transfer case after falling back. So it needs a new transmission, drive shaft and the transfer case needs to be gone through and checked for any damage. I decided to dig into everything myself (limited funds) and was looking for a little advice from some of you with experience.

For the transfer case, I'm planning on pulling it apart to check to make sure the shaft isn't bent. While I'm in there, I figured I might as well replace all of the bearings, bushings, chain and anything else that looks worn. I see a bunch of kits offered online, but no one ever says what brand of bearings or seals come in their kits. Who sells a good quality rebuild kit for this transfer case (BW4406)? Or should I just get the OEM parts from Ford? I don't mind spending a little more to be sure that I'm not using sub-par parts.

For the Transmission, I'm ordering a new case, it broke where the shaft exits. Due to obvious stresses put on the output shaft, I ordered a new. I also want to address some of the weak points of the trans, so I also ordered the Sonnax Forward drum, HD Sun gear and HD Stub shaft. Are there any other hard parts that would fix any other inherent problems? For the rebuild/overhaul kit, who puts together a good one? I've been looking at the Oregon Performance HP Master Overhaul Banner Box Set with the Torrington bearings and adding the full bushing kit. Is this a good quality, well put together kit?

For the Torque converter, I'm not sure exactly what stall speed I need. I emailed a few places asking about which one is correct for my truck but only one place answered back, Oregon Performance. They said the 1900-2000 stall speed matches my stock converter for my truck, but the OEM Ford service manuals I have say that the stall speeds should be:

4.2L = 1983 min 2334 max
4.6L = 2124 min 2488 max
5.4L = 2288 min 2734 max

When I emailed them back asking about the difference, I never received a response back from them so I'm still confused. What is the correct torque converter needed for my truck and who makes a quality one that wont break the bank?

Sorry for all the questions, but I would appreciate any input. I want to make sure I get everything back together correctly so I don't have any problems pop up down the road. Thanks.

I'm not looking for instruction on how to rebuild the trans or transfer case. There are plenty videos on the internet for that (at least for the trans). I'm just looking for some advice:

1. If anyone who works on these transmissions and transfer cases, and has seen the same type of failure, can tell me if there's anything in particular that I should replace for sure or what I should look for.
2. What Trans Rebuild/Overhaul kits come with quality parts? Is the Oregon Performance kit I linked to earlier a good kit for the money? Any other weak points in the trans I should address?
3. Any ideas about the correct stall speed for the torque converter? I keep finding conflicting information. Do the 2288 min - 2734 max stall speeds in the manual sound right or would it be beneficial to go with a lower or higher stall speed?

Thanks.

#1 - I would purchased a dyno tested transmission. Unless you got a lot of time on your hands to go through and measure all the parts, I'd just buy ones that are already done.
#2 - Not sure. For general use, stock is fine.
#3 - 2288 min - 2734 max stall speeds is correct.

Thanks ManualF150 for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it. I looked at the remanufactured transmissions, but didn't like the terms of the warranties. If something goes wrong they want it to be taken to a trans shop for diagnostics, which I understand. The problem is the warranties specifically say that they will only pay up to $300 for the shop services, even if the fault is theirs. Anything above that and I'm on the hook for it and there's no way any shop will remove, diagnose, fix and reinstall a transmission for $300. This was the same policy for almost every remanufacturer I looked at (not including the one's that wouldn't even honor the warranty if it was self installed). I have no desire to pay for other people's mistakes.

I have plenty of time to tear everything apart and the correct tools to check all required clearances, even for the correct length reverse servo. Besides, all remanufacturers and rebuilders only replace the bare minimum they have to. I'm going through the whole thing and upgrading the weak parts and replacing quite a few other parts to insure a longer lasting trans. At least that's the plan. LOL

I guess I'll just have to make sure whatever kit I go with has quality parts and it should be good.

Thanks for the verification of the stall speed. I thought the specs in the manual should be right, but I wasn't sure because of others telling me something different. Do you know of any descent priced, good quality torque converters?

I would go with OEM parts, including a torque converter.

Your repair manual should give you guides on the proper thicknesses of parts too. Hopefully.

I suggest getting a good caliper to measure parts. I invested in a Mitutoyo caliper a while back -- dead nuts accurate.

We have a member who can fix you up with quality rebuild parts, he could even sell you a properly built transmission. Contact him through his website, not through the forum.

http://bcatransmissions.com/

Thanks for the suggestion, but I haven't come across a Ford OEM transmission rebuild kit. Do you have a part number?

As for the torque converter, the Ford one is definitely the cheapest option @ $205 shipped. If I can't get a definitive answer to who's building quality converters that aren't going to bankrupt me, then I had already planned on getting the Ford one. I just figured an upgraded/beefed up converter from a good builder would add to the performance/longevity of the trans. The problem is that the reviews for a lot of the torque converter rebuilders are old, so I'm not sure if they're accurate of the quality that's being put out by them now.

The factory manual has all of the specs for the clearances and thicknesses of the different plates/rings where applicable. The section for disassembly and reassembly is pretty good. Combined with the Transmission Bench videos, they both provide some good, thorough instructions.

I agree, quality measuring instruments are a necessity. Luckily I already have both a Mitutoyo caliper and a depth gauge, along with two types of dial indicators. So I won't have to spend additional funds for them.

Good to know, thanks. I'll have to see what parts he has. I already have quite a few parts and specific tools in hand for the rebuild, so a complete trans is out of the question at this point.

Let him know what parts you already have and take his advice if he says any of them are no good. He builds solid Ford transmissions.

Yeah, Darrin seems to know what he's doing... he's also been on here for a while...

Thanks guys, I'll have to shoot him an email and see how well I did with my parts selection.

Let me know if you need anything.

D

I tried to respond a couple of times last week, but they both were held for moderator review and never posted to the thread. Hopefully this one goes through.

This is what I have so far for the rebuild. Everything is going into a brand new transmission housing.
*OPT HP Master overhaul kit
*Torrington bearing set
*Bushing set
*Sonnax HD Forward drum
*Sonnax HD Sun gear
*Sonnax HD Stub shaft
*Superior K092 super tough plate
*Superior K0132 center support snap ring
*Superior K0117 Billet 2-3 accumulator piston
*Superior K085 Billet overdrive super servo
*All new Ford electronics, both inside and out
*New Ford reverse servo, spring, cover and snap ring
*New Ford OD shaft, spring and snap ring
*New Ford snap ring and cover for 1-2 accumulator.
*New transmission output shaft
*Ford transmission pan with drain plug

Still trying to figure out if I want to use a Sonnax valve body repair kit or just order one that's already been gone through and rebuilt. Still also need a intermediate spiral retaining ring.

Darrin, are the HD 1-2 and 2-3 accumulator springs on your website good to use on a mostly stock set up like mine or just for use with the modified valve bodies you sell? Anything else you can think of?

Does anyone know the part number or where to find this screen for a 4R75E? The trans I'm parting out was a remanufactured one doesn't have it. Since I'm rebuilding the trans with a brand new case, I'd feel better using one to make sure if there are any small machining chips in the case, that they don't cause any problems.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.f15...eaa1af5b35.jpg
Image borrowed from the internet

Perfect. You're google-fu is definitely working better than mine today. Much appreciated.

No problem.

Took me a bit to figure it out, but hey it's not bad... specially not for $12 something...

Good luck...

Already ordered it. Absolutely not bad. $12 is a small price to pay for a little extra protection. Again, much appreciated.

OK guys, I've run into a few issues and need some clarification/help.

1. In the Ford manual, it says:
NOTE: The index mark on the output shaft
must be aligned with the index mark on the
output shaft ring gear during the assembly procedure

There is a dimple on the output shaft ring that's been painted blue (I'm assuming this is the mark they're talking about), but I can't find any index mark on the output shaft itself. If anyone knows exactly what or where the index mark is, please let me know or provide a picture. Thanks.

2. What's the end play of the planetary gears supposed to be for the 4R75E? On the Transmission Bench video, he's working on a 4R70W and says the clearance should be no more than 0.030". Did the clearances change for the 4R75E? My clearances are about 0.042".
Skip to 8:20
3. What are the clearances for the Forward drum clutch pack supposed to be for the 4R75E? On another lesson of that video series he says it's supposed to be between 0.052"-0.090", but my Ford manual says between 0.072"-0.090". Is the one in my manual a typo or did it get changed to 0.072" for the minimum clearance? I can only get about 0.060" clearance with a Sonnax Forward drum, wave ring they suggest, thinnest retaining ring available and new Ford frictions and plates. Clearances measured with dial indicator as per the manual.

Thanks

OK, I guess no one knows what the clutch pack specs or planetary gear end play is supposed to be for the 4R75E. Does anyone have a number or email address to the engineering dept at Ford? Maybe they'll know.

Thanks

I'd email or call Darren. He doesn't check threads very often.

I had emailed him before and he responded to some of my original questions, but never responded back to some additional questions I had sent him. So I just figured he was busy and not interested in answering any more questions.

A few more questions for everyone, sorry.

1. I can't get the proper clearances with Ford frictions and plates in the Sonnax drum. It's only 0.060", 0.012" shy of the minimum 0.072" spec'd in the manual and I'm already using the thinnest retaining ring. Would it cause any issues if 0.012"-0.015" were milled off of the piston to increase clearance?

2. Is it necessary to bed the stock input shaft into the Sonnax drum with some kind of loctite when pressing it in? The Sonnax directions don't mention it and there wasn't any residue on the stock shaft or drum when I separated them indicating that it was done at the factory, but I saw on BCA's website that it's recommended with the 300M shafts or the drum can move. Is it just the 300M shafts that require it or is it necessary for stock shafts too? Darrin, any wisdom would be welcomed.

Thanks guys.

VERY busy. Never not interested in answering. I just get like at least a hundred emails a day and I was out the latter part of last week and through the weekend. That's always an inconvenience. Things really go crazy when I take a vacation like I will be the end of this month. Somehow me doing that manages to get people all riled up at me and I have to run around and put out fires. I wish there were 3 of me at times. LOL

But lord help my wife with more than one of me. Maybe if there were at least a second then I'd have some time to spend with her. Which might push her tolerance though, SO...

Which Sonnax drum, the forward? Their specs don't seem to match reality. If you've got more than .005/friction then go.

I've also seen some serious fitment issues with their forward drums and literally any available shafts, including stock. I even made a youtube video early on about it. Since then it's gotten worse. IF the shaft fits too loosely then it moves no matter loctite or not. I've taken to abusive means to the splines on the shaft to keep them in place.

D

I wasn't meaning the "not interested in answering any more questions" in a mean spirited way, but in a joking manner as in I ask tooooooo many questions. LOL. Though while we're talking about questions, what are your HD OD Bands for the 4R75E's made of? It doesn't specify if they're High Energy or Kevlar.

As for the input shaft fitment into the drum, it seemed pretty tight when pressed in. It didn't move overly easy when going in, you'd have to get some pressure on it before it would move a little. I guess it wouldn't hurt to install it with some kind of retaining compound. Between the Loctite 638 or Permatex High Temperature Sleeve Retainer , which one do you prefer and do I need to apply it to both the shaft and drum splines (conservatively I assume)?

Yes, the Sonnax standard capacity forward drum. When you say .005/friction, are you meaning .005" per friction? If so, that would only be .025" clearance. I must be misunderstanding. I have both the 2004 and 2008 F150 manuals and they both show the forward clutch clearance to be 0.072"-0.090" for the 4R70/75E transmissions. Where as my 2003 F150 manual shows the 4R70W to need a forward clutch clearance of 0.046"-0.068".

Maybe member Mark Kovalsky can chime in since he was an engineer there at the time they transitioned to the 4R70/75E transmissions. Maybe he knows, or would be able to find out, if the specs in both the 2004 and 2008 F150 manuals are typo's.



https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.f15...c1ed5a7ff1.jpg

The Sonnax info is what I'm referring to as not totally accurate.

As long as you can get .005 per friction then you can fly with it. The Ford spec is not wrong. It's what they want measuring the way they do with the wave plate they use. IF you are using the wave plate then you can obviously get by with that much clearance. But if you put that much clearance in one without a substantial wave plate then the 4-3 downshift can be surprisingly abrupt. I am hardly ever able to build that clutch with any wave plate at all. So, mine end up a lot tighter.

But if you're using a thick wave plate and 5 frictions, which is a stock stack, then I sure wouldn't go as tight as .005 per and instead just get as much clearance as you can as long as you don't exceed the larger number.. I still feel like .015 per friction is excessive, but it obviously does what it's supposed to do as this isn't so much a shifting clutch.

D

Thanks for the clarification. I can understand not being able to get as much clearance as the spec calls for when adding extra plates to the forward drum, but I'm still surprised about only 0.030" clearance being acceptable for 6 plates. Wouldn't such a low clearance cause extra wear on the frictions when the the drum is disengaged in OD?

I am doing 5 plates with the thick wave spring. What I thought interesting in Jerry Wroblewski's article when talking about the forward clutch, he says "For a 5-plate forward I'd build it with about 0.080" end clearance. Again, if you are going to be off, be off higher rather than lower." This is when the clearance spec wasn't near that high, so for some reason he thought that it was beneficial to have more clearance than the spec called for. Any idea why?

I can't speak for Jerry. He put some stuff in that article that I simply don't understand. Particularly when it comes to that forward clutch. He says you can somehow fit 7 clutches in that factory drum too. The math definitely doesn't add up there any way you look at it.

I suspect that Ford upped the clearance to try to eliminate any drag they could when that clutch is disengaged. Probably related to CAFE standards they had to meet as every little bit helps I guess.

I'm just trying to tell you what works, and anything .005/clutch or greater works. That's the minimum clearance that the clutches need. But for what I've found to get the best clutch life and customer satisfaction, yours is on the looser end that I'd build. I've stacked a lot of these in a lot of different applications over the years and have had the opportunity to refresh many of my own builds when people wanted to upgrade or just want to get it checked while they were doing other work on their vehicle since my lifetime labor warranty includes that at no charge. What I've seen is that the tighter clutches look darned near brand new and have kept their clearance. The looser ones aren't so much like that unless using a manual valve body. So what that tells me is that a smooth, low pressure part throttle downshift into 3rd on a looser clutch results in wearing the tan frictions more than one with tighter clearances. Perhaps that's why Ford switched to a high energy friction on that clutch in later years. That totally makes sense and I'd never thought about it until now actually. They would hold up much better with that extra clearance.

You can analyze it to death or put it together and be driving it.

I would put it together and be driving it. Trust me, it's not too tight. Nowhere near it actually. NO worries at all.

D

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I was saying it's just surprising to me that 0.005" per was good for drums with extra plates used and was curious if the less clearance would cause more wear of the clutches. You build these transmissions day in and day out. I believe you when you say it works well.

I see what you're talking about in regards to the 7 plate statement in the article, I checked my OEM drum to see what I could get with it. With Raybesto's Stage 1 clutches, stock OEM steels and a 0.062" retaining ring, there was 0.012" clearance. After measuring to determine how much extra clearance could be gained after milling the piston, anything over 0.012" wouldn't make a difference. Removing 0.050" as stated in the article would be just a waste of time, at least in my particular drum.

I'm not trying to over analyze anything. I'm just trying to figure out specifics for everything I can. I've already spent a lot of money buying new parts unnecessarily because I couldn't find specs for particular parts. Example, the planetary gear. The only spec I could find on the pinion end play was from the transmission bench video for a 4R70W. He said if the end play is over 0.030", it would need to be replaced. I was getting 0.052" end play on mine and I couldn't find a spec or anyone who knew if that was excessive for the 4R75E planetary gear pinion so I bought a new one. I get the new one and guess what, it has the exact same end play of 0.052". Complete waste of money. This is why I ask so many questions about everything. With as long as these transmissions have been out, I expected people would have known more about the 4R75E. After I finally get this thing together, I should probably start a thread telling people what not to do when rebuilding their transmissions. LOL!!!!

Trust me, I'd love to have it back together and driving it right now. The valve body I ordered is back ordered and won't be available for a couple more weeks. I didn't want to assemble the transmission and let it sit for weeks before installing it in the vehicle. I wasn't sure if soaking the clutches, installing them, then letting it sit for an extended period of time would cause any issues. Is there a specific amount of time a newly assembled trans can sit before installing it?

I deal with all these questions regularly. There is SO much nonsense out there on the internet posted up by people who want other people to think they know what they're talking about.

The truth is that there are very few real specs available.

Also, likely the best running 4R70W I ever built was put into my old 96 Thunderbird. I don't know what to make of it, but it was going on 275,000 miles the last time I talked to the guy that owns it now. I assembled it with new clutches and a mishmash of parts I had laying around in boxes that I refused to use in my performance builds. There are things you simply do not put into a several thousand dollar transmission that are going into a vehicle with more than 500hp to the wheels. I only built this one that way because I was in a hell of a bind. I was leaving for a trip to Florida and was concerned about how overdrive was acting and a valve body swap did nothing. Threw it together in about an hour and had it in the car in another 3. Normally it takes me longer than that combined 4 hours to just assemble anything that anyone is paying me to do. I truthfully only paid attention to total end play to make sure I had the right thrust washer in there. 14 years later and it's still going strong. I've never heard back from anyone else that has that many miles on one that I built and abuses it like this guy does. Just plain weird how that works.

I also quit soaking clutches years ago. I made that decision the first time I got my hands on a completely fresh factory transmission that hadn't been installed in anything yet and it had been assembled dry. To date, about 13 years later, I haven't found a single reason why the clutches needed to be soaked in the first place.

Also, I had 5 of those factory transmissions. I held onto one for almost a decade before installing it. I am on the opposite end than you. I believe that it is far better to get all the parts in the box where they are safe than to have them anywhere else.

D

I've definitely noticed a lot of varying information out there. Trying to separate everything and find specific info is exhausting sometimes.

I can understand factory units being dry. Ease and speed of assembly as well as prolonged storage are probably a few important factors for that decision. As you've attested to, dry units can be stored for years without problem. Maybe the reason the manuals and manufacturers call for soaking the frictions before installation on rebuilds is to avoid damage to them from people not letting the trans run long enough to lubricate and drench everything before shifting through the gears and engaging clutches. Just a thought.

I completely agree with you about the parts. I'd prefer them to already be installed rather than apart. It bugs me every time I go into the garage a see the parts spread out over my workbenches. But between the Sonnax drum issues, backordered parts and additional parts having to be ordered, it's been unavoidable. Hopefully within the next couple weeks I can get this thing back together and installed before the truck develops other issues from sitting too long.

Does anyone know what's the pressure is in the cooler line coming out of the trans? I was thinking about putting the remote spin on filter on the line coming out of the trans before the thermal bypass valve so that all the fluid gets filtered, not just the fluid after the valve opens up. The majority of the driving will probably be short trips that won't get the fluid hot enough to open the valve, therefor not be very effective if installed after the coolers before returning to the transmission.

Edit: I was thinking of using my parts washer to flush my lines and coolers. I just replaced my solvent with Crown PSC 1000 parts cleaner, which is almost completely Medium Aliphatic Naphtha (Cas #64742-47-8). I don't think the Naphtha would hurt anything, but I thought I'd ask in case someone had some first hand knowledge of why I shouldn't use it.

Thanks

I have all of the internals back in and have a couple of questions. Does the input shaft have to have some in and out play? I checked end play with the Ford tool and a depth micrometer and it was 1.508", so I used the yellow thrust washer as indicated by the chart. The intermediate clutch clearance was also within spec (1.648"). After torquing down the pump, I can spin the shaft easily but it will not move in and out at all. Not even a little. Is this alright or is something amiss and I need to open it back up?

Also, is loctite required for the pump bolts? It looks like the old bolts had something on them from before (yellow colored).

You're good and no loctite

Thanks Darrin. I wasn't sure if the Sonnax sun gear I used was causing it. The lower gear is almost 0.010" taller than the OEM one (must be made to the 4R70W spec). I know Ford shortened them by 0.010" for the E models because of the taller 2 piece #5 bearing, but I guess if it was an issue it would have shown up in the end play measurement.

Any thoughts on putting the remote filter in the output side before the thermal valve and what pressure bypass valve to use there since the pressure at that location will be higher than after the coolers?

btw...He's da man....got it , get it...done!
:banana: :thumber:

I'm sure he'll be flattered that you think so fondly of his dancing banana. Lol

Well, it looks like I'm going to have to pull it apart anyways. All of the drums sealed correctly when checked before assembly, but after I got everything together and checked again with the test plate installed, it seems that the reverse and direct drums are leaking a lot of air. Not sure why now and not before. :think:

I finally got the trans back together again and it's the same issues. The reverse drum is leaking between the stator rings and the direct drum is leaking around either the shaft seals or shaft to drum seals. It's hard to tell when the test plate is hooked up. If I squirt some trans fluid into the hole before testing with air, it cuts the leaking down some. The pump, pump rings, reverse drum, direct drum, output shaft and transmission case are all brand new, as well as the direct drum to output shaft teflon seals. I'm not sure what else I can do to fix this.

All of the pistons engage when hit with air, they just work a little better with some fluid added first. Am I to assume that this is normal and it should work correctly when installed?

Transmission is finally going in this weekend and I have a couple of questions. Which nuts/bolts require loctite and what kind should be used (red or blue)?


1. Flexplate mounting bolts?

2. Torque converter nuts?

3. Transmission housing mounting bolts?

4. Transfer case to transmission extension housing bolts?



Thanks

Well after being sick for a couple weeks and also having to fix the transmission harness, I'm hopefully going to get this thing thrown back together.

I have a question about the torque converter (TC) end play. Are they referring to the distance between the face of the flexplate (FP) to the flats at the bottom of bolts on the torque converter or the side to side movement of the TC bolts in the flexplate holes? If it's the distance between the face of the FP and flats on the TC as I assume, then I have some excessive end play for sure.

The book says end play should be between 0.014"-0.041", but I'm getting 0.256" when I measure it out. The measurement from the end of the bell housing to the flats on the TC is 1.031". The measurement from the face of the FP mounting holes to the spacer plate is 0.775".
1.031-0.775 = 0.256, just over 1/4" of end play. Everything is new Ford parts, so I'm not sure why the excessive amount of end play. Am I measuring it correctly? Is there a different way to measure it? What can be done to correct this?

Also, the new flexplates don't come with the orange alignment paint mark, but the new torque converters still do. The book says to align the two orange marks when assembling them together (I assume for balance reasons). How are these supposed to aligned together now without the mark on the FP?

Thanks.