2 10's or 1 12?
 

Hey guys, I was wondering what hit harder, and what sounded better, 2 10's (600 watts peak) or 1 12(800 watts peek)

If i get the 12 i will probably put a 450 watt amp on it, not sure bout if I got the 2 10's

thats a good question, I'd like to hear some opinions too. Its probably has to do with what kinda quality you want. Myself, I am just looking for a sub to help out with the bass, nothing of show quality, so I will probably go with a single 10.

31C:smoke:

Unfortunatly you didn't tell us anything about the subwoofers.

If you want to find out which subwoofer is most likely louder then take the xmax (in mm, one way) multiply by 2 and then multiply by the cone area. Mathmaticly speaking...

(Xmax * 2) * Sd = Air displaced in a full stroke
Xmax is in mm, one way. Sd is in square meters. Result is in liters.

Here are some examples.
Elemental e15A - 4.69
JL Audio 13w7 - 4.44
Elemental e12A - 2.42
Kicker 12L7 - 1.70
Rockford Fosgate FFS1224 - 1.17
JL Audio 12w0 - 0.91

Using this theory we could guestimate that it would take 5 JL 12w0 to roughly equal the SPL output of 1 e15A.

Mind you this is a freeair estimate and that differences in enclosures, tuning frequencies, peak excursion, sensitivity, vehicles, and power will have great influence.

Now using the idea that you can get a more expensive 12 for the same price as two cheaper 10s we can put this into some real world #s.

2 Image Dynamics IDQ10 v.2 - 1.85
1 Elemental e12A - 2.42

As we can see the single e12A can move more air than the pair of 10" IDQs. We also gain the benefit of being able to port the e12A and keep the enclosure roughly the same size as the dual 10" enclosure. Also gained is a stronger lower end due to the larger 12" subwoofer.

This is just one of the reasons why many seasoned audio vets perfer a single, larger subwoofer.

:lurk:

I agree with Deus and he is dead on the money when it comes to figuring out which would play loudest. However, I feel the comparison needs to also look at a several other factors as he suggested.

How does the sub sound? Anything can be loud and sound like pure crap. If you have an SPL burp machine then this would of course be the ideal calculation and SQ would be irrelevent. Enclosure as previously mentioned would also have to be considered as well for results to be comparative. I could take the best 15" sub in the world and put it in a dinky sealed enclosure then compare that same sub to a 10" sub in an optimum ported enclosure or even a 1/4 wavelength transmission line and stomp the living daylights out of the 15 with a 10" and 1/2 the power. Oh, and I guarantee that the 10" would also sound much better acoustically in that same scenario due to the enclosure factor. Now another thing that we need to look at is the resonance (Fs) of the sub, this also is a huge factor to be considered and typically the closer the resonance to 50hz the louder the sub will play (like tuning a sub box). Then you have the average natural wavelength of each subwoofer to look at in regards to in car performance. If you have an 15" sub with an average wavelength of 18.2 feet then what you may wind up having is cancellation due to in cab reflection from the front windshield/firewall. Take into consideration a box that came out a few years ago by a company called Virtual Technologies. I am not sure if anyone is familiar with these guys or not but I have in the past been able to achieve SPL readings off the center of the dash of 140+db using a single 10" sub.

Again, Deus stated that there are several factors that effect this type comparison. So, I just brought a few other things to the table to also keep in mind as to the why and what for this happens.

Hey guys, thanks. the 10'2 i would get would be kenwood tornadoes, 4 0hms, and the 12 would be a kicker comp Vr DVC 4 ohm.

I would really like the 12, and I kinda figured, also since Deus said, that the 12 would hit harder than the 2 10's.


The only thing that is keeping me from getting the twelve is that I dont think I can fit it under my seat:eek:

Thats why I considered the 2 10's,they will fit good.

So from your advice, I will probably get the 12 and MAKE it fit.

I used the formula and found out the 12 will push more air than the 2 10's.

Kicker!!!
 

Take a look at the Kicker Solobaric 12". I think it's great and plenty loud and great sound quality.

There's no doubt the 10's would be easier to work with. You can get a 12(s) in there, but it takes some creative work depending on wich 12 you are going for. There are some poeple on this forum that have done it behind the seats. I would go for a good set of 10's personally for that simple reason. They'll sound great and be plenty loud. Might not be the same rumble as a 12, but should be darn close considering the application.

I'm glad I have an Expi that I can put my 15 in ;)

more info
 

You also have to look at the surface area of the speakers. Your basically asking if a 12" is better than a 20",(2X10"). Although I personally think 12s sound better , you may want to save the room, and if your going to get subs buy them in pairs, it's always worked out better for me that way. A single speaker only adds low end It's not somthing to show off.

A local audio shop here recommends going with two (small) instead of one (one size up) subs because you get more "cone area". I usually trust this fella's opinion, but I contend that the only way to be sure is to hear both setups and see which you like better.

I guess the cone area thing makes some sense, and if it were me, I'd go with two 10" over one 12" for a few reasons already mentioned:
-you can work with 10"s a little easier
-USUALLY, the increased depth from 10 to 12 isnt going to outweigh the decreased output you'd see with the same step.

Now, this is all assuming they were the same brand.. if not, all bets are off and I'd just go by ear.

</2>

Heracy!
 

2 10"s does not have anywhere near the cone area a 20" would have. They have about the area of a 14". You cannot just add the size of the subs to get a surface area #. You have to use the Sd.



A single 12 requires about the same or less airspace than a pair of 10s.

Yeah, subs are made for adding low end. Thats what they do. Some of the best sounding and loudest subwoofer installs use a single driver.

Simple Question
 

1. If you took 2-10"speakers and put them next to 1-18" speaker, which would be able to move more air?? They are not in boxes, nor does the size of the surround, or the caps matter.




It's not a very difficult Question.



2. On the subject of loudest sub installs;
How many audio competition built cars only have one sub in them?? And, don't tell me that thats not what this thread is about. I already know that, it's just a simple question. dues.

oh, and one one twelve inch speaker and two ten inch speakers of the same brand, need nowhere near the same amout of internal box air space. I'm certifiable about that one.
But I think we got off on the wrong foot.
hear from ya soon,
redneck


:beers:

Always up for a good inet brawl...discussion. :rocker:

Lets take Kicker CompVRs for example (since I have the PDF on my desktop).

C18VR4 - Sd 0.1159m², 14mm one way xmax
C10VR4 - Sd 0.0379m², 11.5mm one way xmax

Free air displacement on the 18" is 3.25L while the 2 10"s score in at 1.74L. Now lets say they used the exact same motor as the 10" at 11.5mm xmax. The 18" still moves 2.67L.

How about enclosure volume?

Kicker recommends 1.6ft² for a pair of CompVR 10"s. For the 12" they recommend 1.0ft².

Nathan Munson with his single DD9515 hitting 170db+ and his single DD9510 hitting 168db+ is one extreme in the SPL scene. Many SQ folks use a single 15". You just have to look for the non sponsored, SQ vehicles and you will find many a single sub set up.

Cheers :beers:

Lets Get It ON!!! :devil:
This is like a debate between the pope and darwin. Niether of us will win. I can tell you about speakers that uphold my side, and you'll retaliate with yours. Good site on munson, that little orange box he's got is a killer, how much do you think the back of that car weighs? And we both know that .6 squared feet is huge when it comes to enclosures. So would you go with 2 10s or 1 12?
Redneck:bandito:

Now gentlemen let's play nice.

One thing I would like to recap, is what it truly boils down to. That would be the enclosure for those who do not know. I have built and designed multiple enclosures of multiple different orders and they all have their, shall we say, unique characteristics. In the stage equipment arena where size means absolutely zero and output, response, clarity and focus means everything you see the folded horn as common place. Most true home audiophiles also choose to give up the enormous amount of space and choose also to go folded horn (aka 1/4 wave length) style enclosure. The reason for all of this is because they can more accurately deliver the sound that they want (think of it as truely tuning the enclosure prefectly for the sub). Also see, Bose Wave Radio which utilizes the tiny little 4" drivers to succesfully reproduce enormous bass output (size considered here).

Anyway, let's get down to brass tacks and think of what it is that we are so desperately trying to reproduce accurately. That would be music of course. Now think of a traditional bass, not electric bass but acoustical bass, you know the one that looks like a cello on steroids. Now for this particular instrument how large is the echo chamber and sound boards? Quite large indeed. Now how large is the actual piece of the instrument which produces that lovely low rumble we love so much? Very very small, in fact merely a small vibrating string. Do we see where this is going? It is not only cone size that makes the difference and more crucially the enclosure.

Long story short. You can do amazing things with a sub of any size but what will give you the response you want with the least amount of space is actually what we are going for here. Assuming that you still want to reproduce sound accurately.

Now, as far as SPL vehicles go we bring a totally different animal into focus since those guys have zero SQ and want loud, loud, loud only. Personally I think that is just a waste, who actually wants to sit in one of those SPL monsters anyway? Do you really want to bleed from the ears or fracture the very delicate bones which reside in your inner ear (which by the way don't heal)? Are we seeing the point yet? Most people want great sound with minimal space but yet also want great output.

For size requirements it sure is easier to get 1.25 cu ft sealed (1-12") than 2.0 cu ft sealed (2-10") and considering that the 12" costs less, displaces pretty close to the same volume as the 10" subs then most would probably find the 12" more appealing. Not to mention you could actually buy a better 12" sub for equal to or less than what the 2 10" subs would cost. But hey, that's just me.

Anyway, that's my take on it.