I drove a little Honda Civic for 9 years. It was an extremely reliable vehicle, breaking-down only once in nine years. I was able to repair this particular ignition failure in 2 hours with $70 part. Actually, the Civic never went back to Honda after it left the lot when I purchased it new in 1989. Sadly the Civic was destroyed in a collision due to the negligence of a young man driving on the wrong side of the road.

Due largely to my Honda experience, I have a theory about auto ownership satisfaction: if it never breaks down, you won't get frustrated taking it in, etc. I don't blame dealers, they're trying to make a profit, which they derive primarily from replacing auto parts. I don't blame the mechanics, who can keep up with all the changes? I'd just rather not deal with these guys, period. The vehicle should be engineered to be easily maintainable, preferably by a reasonably skilled shade-tree mechanic (ever changed the plugs in your 5.4L???).

Now I love my F150. It looks good, its big and unlikely to leave me injured in my next head-on collision. But I had to take it in to the shop five or six times in the first 24 months, for things that shouldn't have failed (I'm not talking routine maint here). Its left me sitting on the side of the road - and it still needs more work done. The guys I've talked to at the Service departments of two different dealerships consistently give me less-than-100% satisfactory answers to my questions. Heck, they can't even agree on what color antifreeze to put in the truck.

I changed the brake fluid the oher day, and found one of the bleeder screws torqued down so tight (from the factory) that I nearly twisted it apart getting it loose. I went to get a couple spares to replace the ugly bleeder screw, and the dealership has NONE in stock (neither one of the two here in town). I can order them - they come in a pack of four at $4.50 each - yes thats right, they want me to shell out $20 bucks for a d*a*m*n bleeder screw, can you believe it?

Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy DIY jobs and challenges, but Ford takes it to a whole new level. For that matter so does GM and Chrysler (I've owned them too, the Dodge I had was the ultimate P.O.S.). My F150 hasn't been a huge pain-in-the-asssss, its just when I look back at the time and money spent keeping it on the road, compared to my old Honda it costs about 5 to 6 times as much to operate (fuel costs are close to triple).

I'm hoping Honda comes out with a Civic-like fullsize truck soon, preferably one with better gas mileage. How about a turbo-diesel? Are you reading this FORD?

 

Hmmm, maybe its just me, but if Honda comes out with a full size, Civic-like (?), truck...... you can have it.

It will have a DOHC, 4-valve per cylinder, VTEC engine that has a timing belt. If you do not change it at 60-80,000 miles, the belt will blow and ruin the engine (they are interference engines). It will be cheaper to replace the engine than repair since the pistons that are ruined will cost around $60 each....... not to mention the machine work, a $350 gasket set, the $800 head(s) that do not come with the cams that also got ruined. The engine will have been assembled outside the truck, and the truck will be formed around it so you cannot work on it. The labor bill will be horrendous.

It will be surrounded by thin sheetmetal (how do you think they get that weight savings for the better gas mileage (see Toyota Tundra))

When the alternator bites it...... you will spend $300++. When any other parts are needed, you will need to bring your own vaseline.

Actually, on second thought........ please buy many of them. My shop makes alot of money fixing these foreign nightmares.
(even if my mechanics learn new, can we say "colorful" words)

Not meaning to be mean. Just trying to inform from my side of the fence (auto repair).

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Gloria
94 Lightning, daily driver
93 EB Explorer, 1000 RTI

 

Seeker:

I too, for many years enjoyed the defect free convenience of Honda vehicles. Since my first 4 door Accord in 1979, yes 1979...my wife and I have owned 6 Hondas, 5 Accords and 1 Prelude. We drove everyone out of the dealer and never, I repeat never, had to go back for a problem. It seems the buyers of Big Three manufactured vehicles have never experienced zero defect production. I drove my 1988 Accord 8 years, 118,000 miles, did regular oil changes, bought one set of tires at 72,000, put on one exhaust system, and never did a tune up or changed the sparks. You might think this sounds like neglect...better think again, it's good sound engineering and defect free manufacturing. When I drive a new vehicle out of the dealer my expectation is NO FAILURES for at least 75,000 miles, regardless of who pays to have it fixed. Only once did any of my Honda's fail to start (fuel pump) over the course of six cars, 750,000 miles and 21 years of ownership.

One problem though.... the SUV craze has been going on for several years and Honda missed that wave. They had to have Isuzu make an SUV for them for several years, they totally missed the boat on buying habits. On top of that, more than half the vehicles sold in this country are trucks....and they let that bandwagon ride by for YEARS, not even producing a small pick-up or light truck.

So, after not having bought a Ford vehicle since 1971 (1967 Shelby Mustang) I recently bought a new SuperCrew. Why ???....Fullsized, 4-door, 8-cyclinder pick-up...really the only vehicle of it's kind available today. I wasn't satisfied with Toyota and I would buy a half-dead horse (fugitive from the glue factory) before a GM product.

But I just love the SCrew, rides great, plenty of passenger space, etc. If Honda does make a full sized truck, or pick-up of any kind they wil be a formidable competitor. Ford and others will have to sit-up and take notice.




[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 01-03-2001).]

 

I copied the following paragraph from the "Engines" section. I thought this post should go into the "Quality" board so Ford might see it:

I have been dealing with BIG BAD FORD for nearly 2 years. I have had numerous problems with my 5.4 Expy, I have started at the dealership and have been as far up the ladder as corporate in Detroit. Ford is going to get theres. They continue to deny ANY problems with ANY vehicles, and this has worked for them for a lot of years. They did not count on the power of the internet. These "enthusiast" sites (like this one) are plagued with complaints (identical ones) one vehicles and we get to compare notes. I like the way they make you feel (dealers, FSE's, the henchmen at corporate customer service) like your NUTS!! That you are hearing noises that aren't there and that loud pinging noise that sounds like an outboard motor is in your imagination. I filled out the Dispute settlement board stuff, but YOU GIVE UP THE RIGHT TO SUE THEM!!! This just isn't right. If you look at the logistics of the DSB you will see that it is a program actually sponsered by FORD. Now I am sure that they settle some in the favor of the consumer, however, you are playing poor odds. I am not a big fan of attorneys and the courts are clogged with alot of crap, but this is what they understand. Initally they act like, "now you will really get nothing from us" (ford) but the closer they get to a jury of 12 hard working americans, it is amazing what they can produce. But you are in it for the long haul. This is 2 years in the process. They voided my warranty at 14,000 miles because I refused to allow rhem to replace my piston slapping engine after they told me 4X there was nothing wrong with it. They only agreed there was something wrong with it after I hired an independent expert at $700, who presented them with a detailed report. When I refused, (I just wanted my money back since I returned to the dealership less then 8 days after purchasing a $34,000 auto with a serious engine problem.) they voided my warranty and told me that my continued driving of the vehicle would cause irrepariable damage to some other component of the vehicle. This was Novemember of 99. I have been driving this BEAST since. It gets <6 mpg and sounds like a VW bug. (we don't take it anywhere but local) The light at the end of the tunnel: We go to trial Jan 31st. Amazingly, they make about an offer a week since the second week in Dec, but I am holding out for the big dog. They are wrong and they know it and in light of their pattern of behavior (example Firestone tire scandal) they don't want to go in front of a jury. HOLD OUT. They net 1.3 million dollars every minute of every day ( a fact on who wants to be a millionaire) and not one dime is spend on customer service or on research and development on improving their vehicles. (yet they cost more and more) I have wanted to just give in and move on (because it has become a major aggravation on my family's life), however, when it starts to cost them more to fight lawsuits then it does to correct what is wrong to begin with, we'll be heading in the right direction. I feel your pain, but hang in there.

L Gal - Go check some Honda site message boards. I bet you won't find numerous, similar posts of owners inquiring about engine problems like rough engine idling, piston slap, blown head gaskets, where to find spare 5.4 L engines and contemplating lawsuit as a last resort to settle their grievances.

I think Mr.Bill expressed my sentiments about Honda quality better than I did. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. However,I believe that if you had ever had the pleasure of owning a Honda you would have a different perspective. And maybe be hoping for a fullsize Honda pickup just like me

 

Seeler333:

Don't give in.....I know it's tempting and a real hassle, but if everyone did that they (or others) won't change their habits. I had trouble when taking delivery of my SCrew, but refused to pick it up, called Ford Credit and told them not to expect payment, then sat tight waiting for a call. I also cancelled payment to the dealer. Ford Credit responded, but customer service went out to lunch and the dealer would have done nothing. See "Fords Blow" responses in this same message area (Quality is Job 1).

Too bad you're not in a "Lemon Law State" like Massachusetts where I bought mine. You'd have a better chance of success and it would be taken care of much more quickly. Hang in there........and good luck.

[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 01-06-2001).]

 

MrBill - the long paragraph I copied wasn't my post, it was from some else - sorry for the confusion. I was simply trying to show how the "quality is job one" idea is lost for the the average owner. The fella who wrote that has obviously put up with a lot from Ford, more than I ever would.

I have been relatively lucky with my F150 compared to some of these poor souls posting @ F150.com. Most of the problems I've had were covered under warranty.

Of course, my old Honda Civic never had any real problems, so I never had to:

1. take it in to the dealer,
2. explain problems to a service manager (who doesn't pass along half the info to the technician),
3. find a ride to work,
4. go back for the vehicle to find that its really sat out back all day and they only started on the job 30 mins ago (and could of done the whole job in a hour instead of leaving me without transportation),
5. have service manager lie to me about things they "checked" and found no problem
6. debate ignorant, dishonest service manager about recalls on my vehicle, then return with NHTSA data to force action
7. have my intelligence insulted by people I wouldn't normally even let mow my lawn, much less fool around with a $30,000 asset.

At this particular dealership I have also dealt with some really helpful techs and parts guys who helped me solve a few problems quickly with no hassle and at no charge. Truly dedicated people. These particular incidents occurred on days when the moronic service manager was absent.

Its ironic that Ford invests so much in design, development and engineering of vehicles, but their customers are forced to suffer through dealings with unskilled, unmotivated and uninformed sales and repair representives.

 

I'm glad you had a good experience with Honda. Times have changed since then, my friend.

Let's run down the list of vehicles I've owned since I started driving:

'87 Ford Ranger . . something went wrong with the shifter at 60k miles, irritating, but nothing major. No engine trouble.
'92 Mitsubishi Eclipse . . one of these so-called "foreign" cars that are supposed to be so great . . poorly assembled, poor fit and finish, electrical and computer nightmares
'95 Toyota Camry - perhaps one of the sweetest and most refined every-man cars . . but they gutted it and we have the current POS Camry . .
'95 Tacoma - Really, really cheap seats and interior materials, poor fit on the window trim, lightweight construction throughout . . very high priced for what you get
'98 Mercedes-Benz C230 . . the most expensive car I ever bought, and it shows. A niggling problem with the sunroof (which we can't dupclicate at the dealer), and a leaky air conditioner (fixed under warranty), but the most thoroughly engineered and solidly built vehicles I've ever been in.
'99 F-150 XL . . what a great value this vehicle is. There's a paint defect in the tailgate (which could have been dealer damage), but otherwise defect free. Great ride and utility.
'01 Honda Oddyssey (on order . . the Benz comes off lease, and with the third child we have no choice)

What's my point? All vehicles, expensive and inexpensive, big and small, domestic and foreign, have their strong points.

Ford vehicles have their strong points . . they will probably not be as reliable as a Honda or Toyota, but they offer much more vehicle for the money, sturdy construction, heavier guage parts and materials . . I could go on. I chose the F-150 over the Tundra based on price, my history with both Ford and Toyota, and quality in general.

Having said that, Ford seems to have trouble with the Windstar . . seems they have many quality problems. Too bad, because I'd like to buy domestic, but the features and reliablity of the Oddysey outshine the Windstar.

And my Ford dealer sucks . . the service manager always acts like he has something better to do than service my Ford.

 

I cant believe you would actually drive a Honda TRUCK! Honda cant make a truck. That is why they dont try. Jump on me, I dont care. But toyota cant make a decent truck and neither can honda. Look at the honda SUV's.

Waldo

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'97 XLT Clearcoat Red 4x2
17 inch Wheels,Stepside, K&N,bedliner, 32 inch tires, flowmasters, deep tint, big Ford oval on back window, 5 spd, platinum plugs, CB, hidden hitch, ford emblem hitch cover and a little wal-mart smiley face on the antenna wearing a coboy hat :-)

http://www.my-f150.com/waldo0506

 

But, when Honda does release it, it will sell quickly. Honda has an awesome name for quality. I believe they can build a truck, but maybe just not to American standards. Have you ever seen the crap they drive in Japan? It's all so tiny.

American cars are more abundant in Japan than Japanese cars...at least they used to be.

 

I have a question.

Are they going to call it the H-150?

 

Also one key thing you are missing. Ford has 5-6 of the top 10 vehicles sold. With the number of cars/trucks they sale, would you not expect to hear more problems than the small number of cars that honda sells? It's hard to keep quality perfect..when you are making 10x more products than, say...honda does?

Which is easier...someone creating 10 products and making them perfect...or someone creating 1,000 products and making them perfect? And how many parts are their in cars? How many problems could, an will, happen?

Go ahead and buy a Honda "truck"...you can be the guy we make fun of. You gotta love their "SUV"'s...lol

 

All car companies build lemons, even Honda. Like Linus said, lol, Ford builds way and I mean way more vehicles than Honda. I bought a new Ranger in '91 that was totalled with 120,000 miles that never left me stranded, not once. The Honda dealership can't keep the valves adjusted correctly on my sisters' '98 VTEC Civic. Not to mention a check engine light that is programmed to come on at or near 10,000 miles just so the dealership can make a few easy $$. No thanks. I'll keep the profits here in the US!

 

Apparently you jap car drivers think American cars suck! Between my parents and myself in the last 10 years, we've put over a half million miles on 4 completely different Ford products and the only two times anything happened on the road were a broken serp belt (should have changed it earlier) that was changed (spare in the trunk) in about 5 mins and a dead starter in a truck (push started in no prob). There were other failures, batteries, alternator, but none left anyone stranded and all were replaced by me in the driveway quickly and cheaply. I guess the cars that people have few problems with are considered to be great and everything else sucks. Must be why I drive Fords and think everything else sucks!

BTW anyone ever seen an oil filter on a Jap 4 banger? Looks like a tea cup heheh

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2000 F150 XLT 4x4 Short Bed. Amazon Green, 5.4L, SuperCab, ORP, Tow Package, Sliding Rear Window, Electronic Shift, Keyless Entry, LT265-70-17 Tires, Clarion Pro Audio, Herculiner Bedliner, Air Silencer Removed.

1994 SVT Mustang Cobra. #1032 of 6009. Black coupe with black leather int., 3.73 rear, Bassani Exhaust, Aluminum D/S, Bridgestone RE-71 255-45-ZR17

My Home Page

 

Out of all my cars I had over the years all FORD's except for the first one that was a Lincoln the only problem I ever had that left me stranded was a fuel pump that went out on my 87 EXP all other no problems so far the truck has 24,800 plus miles on it and hasn't been back to the shop yet my brother in law has a old mazda pickup that breaks down all the time so you can't say the japs build better quality to me except for maybe its better than gm and cysler but FORD builds the best of any make.

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2000 F150 XLT Reg. cab
4.6 Triton Engine
4x2 3.55 rear end gear
sliding rear window
automatic keyless entry
white styleside short box

 

SMALL NUMBER OF CARS HONDA SELLS ???? They only make THE MOST popular selling car in the USA !! But that's not the point, they make one of the most defect free vehicles in the world...and Ford is undoubtedly the best domestic vehicle producer, but they've got a ways to go.

A good friend who I had dinner with last night owns an engine and transmission rebuiding business. He's been in business for 20+ years and now employs 12 full-time re-build mechanics. His TOP 5 accounts are Chrysler, Ford and Mercury Dealers who send major engine and transmission work his way. He said if all vehicles were made like Honda's he never would have become a millionaire. AND....the Ford 3.8 is keeping half his re-buidlers employed. And what vehicle does he purchase for his three teen aged daughters ?????? You guessed, it Honda Accord, so that he doesn't spend his free time repairing the family vehicles.....

[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 03-04-2001).]