HELP!!! xcal2
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Originally Posted by expy03
Ya nailed that one. I agree.
Just talk to anyone that races. 2 identical vehicles will perform differently under different conditions. Soooo many variables.
The bad thing is that we read about a few people having trouble with a mod, and myself included, assume that all the mods of that type are bad. could just be bad production, not enough r&d, the altitude, or any number of weather conditions. I'm sure that thousands of intakes have been installed that have not thrown a code. Same with exhaust. some say you lose low end torque, some say not. Again I think it depends on how the vehicle is driven, other mods, tire size, gear ratio, etc. Ya just never know.
But it sure is fun playing around with it.
That's what it's all about. 
Just talk to anyone that races. 2 identical vehicles will perform differently under different conditions. Soooo many variables.
The bad thing is that we read about a few people having trouble with a mod, and myself included, assume that all the mods of that type are bad. could just be bad production, not enough r&d, the altitude, or any number of weather conditions. I'm sure that thousands of intakes have been installed that have not thrown a code. Same with exhaust. some say you lose low end torque, some say not. Again I think it depends on how the vehicle is driven, other mods, tire size, gear ratio, etc. Ya just never know.
But it sure is fun playing around with it.
That's what it's all about. Some more info ... fyi only. Peace.
https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=10
Cheers
Bubba
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From: Virginia
I'm going to give a little primer......
The MAF sensor itself cannot "compensate" for anything. Period. It's the programming/logic inside the PCM that allows any "compensation".
You CANNOT just put on any intake kit that actually adds real peak power (well, other than the 3.0" AF1 so far) on the 5.4 3V F-150 without needing tuning corrections - specifically, correcting the MAF transfer function, which can only be done by having proper data via datalogging, to correct the transfer function. What you are doing is zeroing out the fuel trims in closed loop, and then in open loop, programming it so that the vehicle achieves the commanded A/F ratio. That means if the A/F ratios are off, you do NOT go into the fuel tables to change anything - you change the calibration of the mass air sensor inside the PCM's programming.
Another poster tried explaining it when he said that the MAF sensor's logic (inside the PCM, not the MAF sensor itself) is calibrated for a certain cross-sectional area, and if you change that, then you invoke a need to change it's calibration - which is the mass air sensor's transfer function. This is 101 for a skilled tuner, of course.
However, it goes deeper than that - you can have the same cross sectional area in areas before & after the MAF, and still need tuning changes in some intake kits.
Another point is that once again, the MAF sensor itself compensates for NOTHING - never has. What it does is use 2 wires, one heated by current, one that stays at ambient air temperature, and the voltage required to reheat the hot wire to 200C (is the usual standard) above ambient is what the PCM INTERPRETS as the MEASUREMENT of incoming air density/volume.
THAT is potentially affected by temperature, humidity, cross sectional area, shape, & volume of the air intake tract and sometimes further down from the air intake tract itself, camshaft profile, cylinder heads, certain exhaust changes, and many other things.
Now it is ADAPTIVE STRATEGY that allows a certain amount of "correction" of the fuel delivery (and many other things), but it "adapts" fuel delivery based ONLY on data garnered from the O2 sensors in closed loop! That gives you nothing at full-throttle - you can still be achieving stoich A/F in closed loop yet be dead lean at WOT - and by the way, running at 19:1 A/F, that is so lean you could run at WOT all day and not hurt anything, as you cannot generate enough heat - there are *ranges* of A/F's within which you will burn things up - richer or leaner than those ranges, you can't burn it up as you simply aren't making enough heat, though if it were rich enough, you could wash oil down of the cylinder walls and take out the rings eventually.
Anyway - now there are some vehicles, like the 5.4 3V that DOES allow the PCM to apply the corrections learned in closed loop (light load) to the WOT fuel table (or take half of it and apply it to the MAF TF), but this is a BAD thing - you virtually never have the same amount of correction required at light load that you need at heavy loads.
I could go on and on, but I'm just trying to make a point in a friendly way - which is, before you start telling people things like sure, just go put on a big intake kit and the PCM will just adapt to it, and thus potentially cause them to ruin an engine and incur a $7000 repair bill, you need to actually understand how the system really works, OK?
Otherwise, you could really set them on a dead wrong path and cause them a very expensive repair bill, and I think I know you well enough to know that you would never knowingly want to do that.
The MAF sensor itself cannot "compensate" for anything. Period. It's the programming/logic inside the PCM that allows any "compensation".
You CANNOT just put on any intake kit that actually adds real peak power (well, other than the 3.0" AF1 so far) on the 5.4 3V F-150 without needing tuning corrections - specifically, correcting the MAF transfer function, which can only be done by having proper data via datalogging, to correct the transfer function. What you are doing is zeroing out the fuel trims in closed loop, and then in open loop, programming it so that the vehicle achieves the commanded A/F ratio. That means if the A/F ratios are off, you do NOT go into the fuel tables to change anything - you change the calibration of the mass air sensor inside the PCM's programming.
Another poster tried explaining it when he said that the MAF sensor's logic (inside the PCM, not the MAF sensor itself) is calibrated for a certain cross-sectional area, and if you change that, then you invoke a need to change it's calibration - which is the mass air sensor's transfer function. This is 101 for a skilled tuner, of course.
However, it goes deeper than that - you can have the same cross sectional area in areas before & after the MAF, and still need tuning changes in some intake kits.
Another point is that once again, the MAF sensor itself compensates for NOTHING - never has. What it does is use 2 wires, one heated by current, one that stays at ambient air temperature, and the voltage required to reheat the hot wire to 200C (is the usual standard) above ambient is what the PCM INTERPRETS as the MEASUREMENT of incoming air density/volume.
THAT is potentially affected by temperature, humidity, cross sectional area, shape, & volume of the air intake tract and sometimes further down from the air intake tract itself, camshaft profile, cylinder heads, certain exhaust changes, and many other things.
Now it is ADAPTIVE STRATEGY that allows a certain amount of "correction" of the fuel delivery (and many other things), but it "adapts" fuel delivery based ONLY on data garnered from the O2 sensors in closed loop! That gives you nothing at full-throttle - you can still be achieving stoich A/F in closed loop yet be dead lean at WOT - and by the way, running at 19:1 A/F, that is so lean you could run at WOT all day and not hurt anything, as you cannot generate enough heat - there are *ranges* of A/F's within which you will burn things up - richer or leaner than those ranges, you can't burn it up as you simply aren't making enough heat, though if it were rich enough, you could wash oil down of the cylinder walls and take out the rings eventually.
Anyway - now there are some vehicles, like the 5.4 3V that DOES allow the PCM to apply the corrections learned in closed loop (light load) to the WOT fuel table (or take half of it and apply it to the MAF TF), but this is a BAD thing - you virtually never have the same amount of correction required at light load that you need at heavy loads.
I could go on and on, but I'm just trying to make a point in a friendly way - which is, before you start telling people things like sure, just go put on a big intake kit and the PCM will just adapt to it, and thus potentially cause them to ruin an engine and incur a $7000 repair bill, you need to actually understand how the system really works, OK?
Otherwise, you could really set them on a dead wrong path and cause them a very expensive repair bill, and I think I know you well enough to know that you would never knowingly want to do that.
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Vienna, Georgia
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
What you are doing is zeroing out the fuel trims in closed loop,
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
and then in open loop, programming it so that the vehicle achieves the commanded A/F ratio. That means if the A/F ratios are off, you do NOT go into the fuel tables to change anything - you change the calibration of the mass air sensor inside the PCM's programming.
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
Now it is ADAPTIVE STRATEGY that allows a certain amount of "correction" of the fuel delivery (and many other things), but it "adapts" fuel delivery based ONLY on data garnered from the O2 sensors in closed loop!
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
That gives you nothing at full-throttle - you can still be achieving stoich A/F in closed loop yet be dead lean at WOT
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
there are *ranges* of A/F's within which you will burn things up
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
Anyway - now there are some vehicles, like the 5.4 3V that DOES allow the PCM to apply the corrections learned in closed loop (light load) to the WOT fuel table (or take half of it and apply it to the MAF TF), but this is a BAD thing - you virtually never have the same amount of correction required at light load that you need at heavy loads.
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
I could go on and on,
So, in brief... It will get used to the large intake under closed loop conditions, but a 3.5" intake could cause a lean problem on WOT. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Am I correct in saying that if you avoid heavy throttle with a 3.5" intake, (no tune) you won't have problems. Such as taking it into the dealer, etc,? Cause your transfer function correction wouldn't be *prudent* under closed loop conditions.
One more question, if I may, regarding FFV programming.... Does it apply the same logic as the "fuel trim corrections table added to the open loop (WOT or whatever) fuel table" to account for variances in the ethanol content of gasoline? Or do the FFV's use some other method of "calibrating" itself to varying ethnol concentrations? This question has puzzled me for a while now. It would seem to me, that it would explain your previous post about the WOT fuel table corrections in the 3 valve engines, and why they are (relatively) useless in correcting for MAF anomalies. Maybe they weren't intended for that at all.
Reference:
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
like the 5.4 3V that DOES allow the PCM to apply the corrections learned in closed loop (light load) to the WOT fuel table (or take half of it and apply it to the MAF TF), but this is a BAD thing - you virtually never have the same amount of correction required at light load that you need at heavy loads.
Last edited by chester8420; Feb 16, 2007 at 09:54 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2004
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From: North Huntingdon,Pa.
?
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
I'm going to give a little primer......
The MAF sensor itself cannot "compensate" for anything. Period. It's the programming/logic inside the PCM that allows any "compensation".
You CANNOT just put on any intake kit that actually adds real peak power (well, other than the 3.0" AF1 so far) on the 5.4 3V F-150 without needing tuning corrections - specifically, correcting the MAF transfer function, which can only be done by having proper data via datalogging, to correct the transfer function. What you are doing is zeroing out the fuel trims in closed loop, and then in open loop, programming it so that the vehicle achieves the commanded A/F ratio. That means if the A/F ratios are off, you do NOT go into the fuel tables to change anything - you change the calibration of the mass air sensor inside the PCM's programming.
Another poster tried explaining it when he said that the MAF sensor's logic (inside the PCM, not the MAF sensor itself) is calibrated for a certain cross-sectional area, and if you change that, then you invoke a need to change it's calibration - which is the mass air sensor's transfer function. This is 101 for a skilled tuner, of course.
However, it goes deeper than that - you can have the same cross sectional area in areas before & after the MAF, and still need tuning changes in some intake kits.
Another point is that once again, the MAF sensor itself compensates for NOTHING - never has. What it does is use 2 wires, one heated by current, one that stays at ambient air temperature, and the voltage required to reheat the hot wire to 200C (is the usual standard) above ambient is what the PCM INTERPRETS as the MEASUREMENT of incoming air density/volume.
THAT is potentially affected by temperature, humidity, cross sectional area, shape, & volume of the air intake tract and sometimes further down from the air intake tract itself, camshaft profile, cylinder heads, certain exhaust changes, and many other things.
Now it is ADAPTIVE STRATEGY that allows a certain amount of "correction" of the fuel delivery (and many other things), but it "adapts" fuel delivery based ONLY on data garnered from the O2 sensors in closed loop! That gives you nothing at full-throttle - you can still be achieving stoich A/F in closed loop yet be dead lean at WOT - and by the way, running at 19:1 A/F, that is so lean you could run at WOT all day and not hurt anything, as you cannot generate enough heat - there are *ranges* of A/F's within which you will burn things up - richer or leaner than those ranges, you can't burn it up as you simply aren't making enough heat, though if it were rich enough, you could wash oil down of the cylinder walls and take out the rings eventually.
Anyway - now there are some vehicles, like the 5.4 3V that DOES allow the PCM to apply the corrections learned in closed loop (light load) to the WOT fuel table (or take half of it and apply it to the MAF TF), but this is a BAD thing - you virtually never have the same amount of correction required at light load that you need at heavy loads.
I could go on and on, but I'm just trying to make a point in a friendly way - which is, before you start telling people things like sure, just go put on a big intake kit and the PCM will just adapt to it, and thus potentially cause them to ruin an engine and incur a $7000 repair bill, you need to actually understand how the system really works, OK?
Otherwise, you could really set them on a dead wrong path and cause them a very expensive repair bill, and I think I know you well enough to know that you would never knowingly want to do that.
The MAF sensor itself cannot "compensate" for anything. Period. It's the programming/logic inside the PCM that allows any "compensation".
You CANNOT just put on any intake kit that actually adds real peak power (well, other than the 3.0" AF1 so far) on the 5.4 3V F-150 without needing tuning corrections - specifically, correcting the MAF transfer function, which can only be done by having proper data via datalogging, to correct the transfer function. What you are doing is zeroing out the fuel trims in closed loop, and then in open loop, programming it so that the vehicle achieves the commanded A/F ratio. That means if the A/F ratios are off, you do NOT go into the fuel tables to change anything - you change the calibration of the mass air sensor inside the PCM's programming.
Another poster tried explaining it when he said that the MAF sensor's logic (inside the PCM, not the MAF sensor itself) is calibrated for a certain cross-sectional area, and if you change that, then you invoke a need to change it's calibration - which is the mass air sensor's transfer function. This is 101 for a skilled tuner, of course.
However, it goes deeper than that - you can have the same cross sectional area in areas before & after the MAF, and still need tuning changes in some intake kits.
Another point is that once again, the MAF sensor itself compensates for NOTHING - never has. What it does is use 2 wires, one heated by current, one that stays at ambient air temperature, and the voltage required to reheat the hot wire to 200C (is the usual standard) above ambient is what the PCM INTERPRETS as the MEASUREMENT of incoming air density/volume.
THAT is potentially affected by temperature, humidity, cross sectional area, shape, & volume of the air intake tract and sometimes further down from the air intake tract itself, camshaft profile, cylinder heads, certain exhaust changes, and many other things.
Now it is ADAPTIVE STRATEGY that allows a certain amount of "correction" of the fuel delivery (and many other things), but it "adapts" fuel delivery based ONLY on data garnered from the O2 sensors in closed loop! That gives you nothing at full-throttle - you can still be achieving stoich A/F in closed loop yet be dead lean at WOT - and by the way, running at 19:1 A/F, that is so lean you could run at WOT all day and not hurt anything, as you cannot generate enough heat - there are *ranges* of A/F's within which you will burn things up - richer or leaner than those ranges, you can't burn it up as you simply aren't making enough heat, though if it were rich enough, you could wash oil down of the cylinder walls and take out the rings eventually.
Anyway - now there are some vehicles, like the 5.4 3V that DOES allow the PCM to apply the corrections learned in closed loop (light load) to the WOT fuel table (or take half of it and apply it to the MAF TF), but this is a BAD thing - you virtually never have the same amount of correction required at light load that you need at heavy loads.
I could go on and on, but I'm just trying to make a point in a friendly way - which is, before you start telling people things like sure, just go put on a big intake kit and the PCM will just adapt to it, and thus potentially cause them to ruin an engine and incur a $7000 repair bill, you need to actually understand how the system really works, OK?
Otherwise, you could really set them on a dead wrong path and cause them a very expensive repair bill, and I think I know you well enough to know that you would never knowingly want to do that.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,803
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From: North Canton, Ohio
Kinda, Sorta, should of maybe kept the kid quiet I would of thought, but he spouted off again....UNBELIEVEABLE.......Chester I think you just like to respond to anybody about anything at anytime...Do you love to hear yourself talk too ????????
( I will never respond to another thread that I see you have been part of, just so you don't think I am picking on you or something...and you can take that to the bank)
( I will never respond to another thread that I see you have been part of, just so you don't think I am picking on you or something...and you can take that to the bank)
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From: Vienna, Georgia
Originally Posted by Marc Carpenter
Kinda, Sorta, should of maybe kept the kid quiet I would of thought, but he spouted off again....UNBELIEVEABLE.......Chester I think you just like to respond to anybody about anything at anytime...Do you love to hear yourself talk too ????????
( I will never respond to another thread that I see you have been part of, just so you don't think I am picking on you or something...and you can take that to the bank)
( I will never respond to another thread that I see you have been part of, just so you don't think I am picking on you or something...and you can take that to the bank)
Obviously I was wrong about the intake causing a "non-correctable" (especially on the 2V engines) lean condition on WOT. Also, it wouldn't throw a CEL for that lean condition either. It's a shame that they are built that way, but oh well. Logic states otherwise, but Mr. Troyer has obviously won the day, and explained everything.
I hope that he has the time next week, to answer my final questions. If not, I understand. He's here to selling chips and intakes, not answering my questions. He was just nice enough to do it. I also understand if he says "NO" to running the truck with no tune to the dealer. You never know what they might do with it when you leave it. They might go drag race it! And that is something that I didn't think of earlier. I also was wondering about the actual damage aspect of it, because I have been working on getting my truck to run off E85, and the effects are similar to that of an intake. It has just come available in my area, and I have been making a "backwards" attempt to get my truck to run off E85. Instead of injecting more fuel, I've been working on limiting air induction on WOT and fooling the MAF sensor.
Last edited by chester8420; Feb 19, 2007 at 12:25 AM.
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From: The Bluegrass State
Originally Posted by chester8420
Marc, go screw yourself.
I'm *NOT* going to tolerate stupid, immature, childish, foolish behavior/comments/interjections/banter here in the chips/tuners forums - nor anywhere else here at f150online.com.
You two need to get a grip and grab hold tight and quick.
-RP-
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From: Virginia
I think I may have put this same post in a different (and thus wrong) thread
Anyway, for Chester - if you want to go over this in a bit more detail so you understand it (as you still have a number of misunderstandings about this), just give me a call at the shop and I'll go over the basics with you - it's just far too time-consuming to go over here, OK?
Thanks, & talk to you soon!
Anyway, for Chester - if you want to go over this in a bit more detail so you understand it (as you still have a number of misunderstandings about this), just give me a call at the shop and I'll go over the basics with you - it's just far too time-consuming to go over here, OK?
Thanks, & talk to you soon!
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Vienna, Georgia
Originally Posted by Superchips_Distributor
I think I may have put this same post in a different (and thus wrong) thread
Anyway, for Chester - if you want to go over this in a bit more detail so you understand it (as you still have a number of misunderstandings about this), just give me a call at the shop and I'll go over the basics with you - it's just far too time-consuming to go over here, OK?
Thanks, & talk to you soon!
Anyway, for Chester - if you want to go over this in a bit more detail so you understand it (as you still have a number of misunderstandings about this), just give me a call at the shop and I'll go over the basics with you - it's just far too time-consuming to go over here, OK?
Thanks, & talk to you soon!
(not nervous about running 42.5, but about wanting to run a higher concentration!)I'm trying to do it all with the edge, but I may have to break down and buy the pro racer software too.
I might have bought it already but the nearest dealer to me is in south carolina. (Dan Desio)
Last edited by chester8420; Feb 21, 2007 at 12:24 AM.
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From: Athens, Georgia
Originally Posted by chester8420
I'm not going to bother you at work with my crap without at least buying something from you. I'll talk to you when I get enough money to buy an A/F monitor. I'm getting kinda nervous running E-42.5! (not nervous about running 42.5, but about wanting to run a higher concentration!)
I'm trying to do it all with the edge, but I may have to break down and buy the pro racer software too.
(not nervous about running 42.5, but about wanting to run a higher concentration!)I'm trying to do it all with the edge, but I may have to break down and buy the pro racer software too.
I just go and take my nerve calming medicine now!!!
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From: Vienna, Georgia
Originally Posted by romedawg351
Why do that, just suck it up and pay for pure gas like the rest of us around here. Well, I guess I am just not as special as you are.
I just go and take my nerve calming medicine now!!!
I just go and take my nerve calming medicine now!!!