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P0012 & P0022 - Complete Timing Job done, what now ???
I thought I would start my own thread since it gets confusing responding to other threads with similar issues. The real problem is the issues never stop with this motor
I was hijacking this thread since I initially had those issues as well- Other Thread
Background:
2006 F150 5.4L with 162k
Initially I had issues with the engine stalling after it was hot when coming to a stop. I was getting P0345 and P0303 codes. After replacing the VCT solenoid on the drivers side (Bank2) that got rid of the P0345 code. The spark plug on cylinder #3 was also broken so after replacing all of them, that code is gone as well. These repairs only soved those specific issues, the HOT idle behavior was still present.
After much reading about all of the issues these 5.4L motors have with the timing components I decided to jump in.
Here is what I discovered and what was replaced:
Failed thrust washers
Failed tensioners
After the first two repairs (Plugs & VCT solenoid) I changed the oil and added the MMO for the flush. I drove it around a couple hundred miles then jumped into the Timing Job.
There were not any broken guides or anything else that seemed out of the ordinary. While the oil pan was off the pickup tube assembly was completely cleaned out of the metal shavings from the thrust washer failure.
Here is everything that was done during the repair:
Thrust Washers (OEM)
Oil Pan Gasket set
Oil Filter (OEM)
Trans Filter/Gasket
Trans Fluid (OEM)
Marvel Mystery Oil-engine flush
Fuel Treatment
Throttle Body cleaned with new gasket
VCT Solenoid (Bank 2) (OEM)
Air box Foam Seal (OEM)
Fuel Filter (OEM)
Spark Plugs (OEM)
Oil Filter (OEM)
Serpentine Belt (OEM)
Motor Oil 7qts (OEM)
Timing Chains
Timing guides
Timing Tensioners
Phasers
Oil Pump (M340)
After all of these items were replaced, I am STILL getting the low oil pressure at idle when HOT issue. I pull up to a stop after a long drive and the idle drops low (around 550-600) and the rattling/clanking starts. As soon as I rev it up a bit it clears up and the oil pressure returns to normal and the engine sounds fine. After clearing the pending P0012 & P0022 codes, one or both of them come back after a short while. They have not reached a hard code yet, still just pending. I haven't really driven it more than like 30-40 minutes so they may set a hard code after more time.
My 2004 F150 4.6L has 269k on it and I just did the whole timing job (not oil pump) at 265k and everything worked out great. I had no issues whatsoever on it. Runs like a top. No check engine lights, no codes, nothing.
Not sure what else I can do to this motor ???
I have spent over $1700 on this so it's a little frustrating.
Honestly man at this point, I would look for a bone yard motor and swap all your parts over. One can be had for less that what you had in this one.
My luck it would have the same problems as mine....
It seems as though the idle drops too much when coming up to a stop. Not sure if that is a ECM issue or a throttle body issue but if the idle didn't drop then I don't think I would be having a "low oil pressure" situation. Just trying to figure out what else could be at hand here ? Is there a way to increase the baseline idle values ???
This TSB 08-5-13 explains that there is updated strategy for sludge compensation that needs to be programmed into Powertrain control module. Basically, what that means is that the PCM will compensate for this sludge build up inside the throttle body and will adjust things accordingly. TSB 08-5-13 recommends to reprogram the Powertain Control Module to the latest calibration using (the Ford Factory scanner or IDS) release 53.9 and higher or 54.1 and higher and then after the update, turn the key on and allow the PCM to go through the sludge compensation strategy. Then with the AC off, start the engine and allow it to reach normal operating temperature and check the ETC trim value. If it is 3.0 degrees or greater, replace the Electronic Throttle body (ETC) with the appropriate updated part number. If the new strategy fixes the concern, no further repair needed. (Although, I would strongly recommend to clean the throttle body assembly using some throttle body cleaner and a soft wire brush). However, if reflash/reprogram (and cleaning the throttle body) does not fix the stalling, surging and or idle concern, replace the throttle body with the updated part number.
Here are the new/updated part numbers:
5.4L 8l3z-9e926-b Note: this unit comes with the new TPS sensor.
The other thing I notice is that once it's HOT it seems to be very sluggish and slow to accelerate. Also, it seems if I do not let it do it's low idle/oil pressure thing then I do not get the P0012 & P0022 codes. They only seem to happen when the engine does it's diesly/rattling thing.
I forgot to post these up before but maybe the main bearings are scored enough to cause an oil pressure issue ??? It seems as though this 5.4L is extremely picky on oil pressure.
Crank
Rear main bearing
Just trying to figure out what else could be causing my low oil pressure symptoms since everything else has been changed.
What are your thoughts on doing a main bearing roll in and not taking the engine out ?
Just getting a new set of Standard size bearing and change them out from underneath?
Did you change the oil pump to a high volume one? That's gonna be about the only way to get your psi up to overcome lots of loose tolerances.
No, I only used the M340, the HV was special order and not in stock plus it was double the price. In hindsight I guess I should have waited for that one Not saying that would have solved my issues but ya never know. I have already thrown so much at this engine, I'm fighting an uphill battle at this point.
Originally Posted by glc
By the looks of that bearing and crank journal, you need a rebuild. If you don't, at least try some 15w40 diesel oil.
I added the 15w-40 Torco SD-5 in it today. I will drive it around tomorrow and get it HOT to see if anything changes.
Is the roll in bearing idea plausible ??? I really don't want to take this motor out and do a full rebuild right now. At the end of the day it's a work truck and just needs to run decent, not a show truck.
Thanks for the private message and the confidence. I'm far from an expert but I will answer here so others can build on, or challenge, my thoughts on the issue.
How are you determining the "low oil pressure" issue? Do you have an aftermarket oil pressure gauge and what is the actual hot (FULL EOT) idle pressure?
I agree that P0012 and P0022 together indicate that both banks are able to 'retard' the cams, but having trouble advancing (pushing the Phasers forward - back to base 'ZERO' retard position. 'Retard' is NEVER requested by PCM below 800 RPM -OR- below 25% engine load. Above 800 RPM, oil pressure is certainly HIGHER (or more likely to be sufficient). HOWEVER, the design of VCT is- any time you let off the gas (drop below 25% engine load) any retard request is removed - while RPM is generally well over 800 RPM and oil pressure is adequate, the VCT solenoids should close / route oil into advance chambers and send phasers to BASE zero retard. The clock spring and locking pin should hold them there ------- UNLESS, there is for some reason excessive camshaft rotational drag, which probably wouldn't be effecting both banks.
The other thing that can result in the 'over retarded' codes is if the 'clock spring' and internal locking pin fails to HOLD Phasers at BASE position, Then (generally on startup - no oil pressure YET condition), the cam/valve spring drag will cause cams to drag into the retard position when it isn't being requested - ie: 'over retarded'. (However THAT normally results in P034x series of codes if it happens during startup).
These things, in my view support the idea that oil pressure (IN THE HEADS) is probably low.
I emphasize "in the heads" because: The LOWER END oil pressure, even with a quality oil pressure gauge, is not 'completely' indicative of what the Phasers are seeing. There are 'restrictors' in the oil galley entry points of the heads (Rear of Bank 1, and Front of Bank 2). Phasers are at the 'END OF THE LINE' after all cam bearings / lifters (pissing oil out on the roller/followers), VCT solenoids w/o gasket/seals, Chain tensioners and so forth. So you do not / cannot know what the oil pressure is that reaches the Phasers after all this 'leakage' downstream from a 'restrictor'.
An aftermarket gauge would help us know if the lower end (Scored Main Bearings / journals) is the source of degraded oil pressure. // I wish you had rolled in new Main bearings when you had them out taking that picture of them. Seems that would have to have helped - even if ever so slightly //
The upper end ------ I know of no way to get a better diagnosis other than employ an OBDII scanner than can read and display REQUESTED RETARD and actual CAM ERROR 'PIDs'. If the phasers a NOT maintaining the proper positioning - it WILL show up there. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357 ... But basically, the PCM is already telling us that is what is happening with the two codes.
I notice you did not mention replacing lifters / roller followers, so I assume the cams - cam journals have not been inspected. With the thrust washer failure, it would not be unreasonable to suspect the cam journals look WORSE than that Main Bearing. IF LOWER END OIL PRESSURE IS DECIENT, I would recommend pulling cams and take a look. There are NO bearings there, and the aluminum head journals would be VERY susceptible to damage by shavings getting to them - and KILL oil pressure in the heads.
Sorry for the long post. (BUT YOU ASKED! LOL).
Last edited by F150Torqued; 06-27-2018 at 08:40 AM.
Reason: added clearification of possible P034x cause
Changed the oil with the 15-40 diesel Torco mentioned above.
Drove it on a long trip an hour away to get it nice and HOT. Everything was fine on the freeway (of course) and even after I got off and drove through town it was behaving properly.
That is until I pulled into a parking lot and started going on and off the gas in very small amounts. If the idle dips just right it will start to clank a little i.e. low oil pressure sounding. No I have not put an external oil gauge on so i don't know exactly what it is but just based off the sound it is struggling to be above that 15 psi threshold.
Then upon driving it home it didn't do the low idle/oil pressure thing so maybe the oil did something BUT.....
The crazy thing is I hear that whizzing/whirring sound like I did BEFORE the thrust washer repair was done. Like the crank is rubbing against the main caps. Like the crank "walked" again somehow ???
Could that have already fallen out ? How ?
Well I guess since I was going to pull the pan off again anyways to possibly do the main bearings roll in I will see what's going on there but it is just a crazy issue that is really unexplained.
Pulled the bearing cap off and sure enough the Thrust Washer are toast again, all in under 200 miles.
What the hell is causing the Thrust Washer failure in the first place? I'm sure Ford never admitted to any design flaw but there obviously is a flaw since people are having issues with as little as 30k on the odo.
Given that thought I would never try to rebuild this motor since I have NO idea what caused the failure in the first place. The ONLY parts that showed failure were the Thrust Washers and seals on the tensioners. All of the other parts that were replaced look good physically.
The real question is what motors are safe to move forward with. If this was a known issue in 2007-08 then why is my 05/06 engine going down this path ? I fee like I would just be gambling on picking up a used motor since so many issues are present with the 5.4L.
What year(s) are safe?
I hope anyone reading this thread and currently has Low Idle/Low Oil Pressure, clanking engine sounds thinks long and hard before spending any money on their motor because that would most likely be a bad decision. The first thing I would do is pull the oil pan off since that takes less that 20 minutes. If you find metal shaving in the pan or actually see the (1) thrust washer in the bottom of your pan, STOP right there and don't waste any time on the front of the motor because it will be futile.
Something is causing a lack of oil at the rear of these motors. I haven't seen any one explain a comprehensive reason for why this is occurring. They only talk about this or that or time for a rebuild. An engine with 30k shouldn't need a rebuild or have a bad thrust washer. Now mine has more than that but I'm just saying, What the hell is going on here ? This makes no sense.
A lot of people will disagree with me, but I won't touch a 5.4 or 4.6 3 valve with a 10 foot pole.
Too bad you have so much money tied up in it now - your best bet is a reman with a warranty.
I agree, my 04 4.6L 2v is amazing, 269k and still sounds great. I just did the timing components at 265k, this is a true work truck motor. I have had zero problems with this engine. It takes a beating and still comes out kicking.
What are the ideal 5.4L engine years I should look for if I decide not to just give this POS to CarMax?....hehe
Geeez, I am sorry for your misfortunate destruction of thrust washers . I honestly do not know WHAT exerts excessive pressure on thrust washers - either forward or backward - to make them fail in the first place.
I'm attaching an oil flow diagram for your further diagnostic / information.
But, like you said, wouldn't risk just doing them again without positively understanding what is causing it and fixing that too - What ever that is.
I've heard / read (but don't automatically believe either of those) that a front pulley out of alignment with power steering or A/C pully can do it. I would dispute that that could put enough force on them to overcome the protection of a film of oil (rod / main bearings face MUCH more).
I wonder if a 'BENT' rod between the wrist pin and crank journal would be the culprit? That certainly could put lots of axial force on the crankshaft --- at the combined expense of the cylinder's wall. Or I wonder if something with Torque Convertor or the Flex Plate cracking / warping could exert axial force on the crankshaft.
I suppose upstream wear or an obstruction in oil galley could starve rear bearing (and degrade overall engine oil pressure since you have both banks involved (over retarded or VCT performance).
Seems like in whatever case, engine might have to come out for proper repair / complete rebuild ---- @glc is probably right at this point.
06-23-2018, 08:01 PM
Not saying that would have solved my issues but ya never know. I have already thrown so much at this engine, I'm fighting an uphill battle at this point.
. I honestly do not know WHAT exerts excessive pressure on thrust washers - either forward or backward - to make them fail in the first place.