Hey F150Torqued-

Great info in this thread.

2006 F-150 5.4L with 162k

I too have an F-150 that has the P0345 & P0349 codes present. It had a rough idle and would stall whilst stopping after getting warmed up.

I did unplug the VCT on bank 2 and I am still getting the same codes appearing. I don't know the repair history on the truck so I'm starting from scratch.

Based on what you mentioned above it seems as though the Cam Phaser itself is bad or the timing is somehow off ??? It would seem to me if the VCT was bad there would be some kind of change if it was unplugged. Nothing changed at all and the truck still stalled while stopping.

I am planning on taking the valve cover off tomorrow to see the chain tension and see how the phaser looks physically. Is there any way to determine just by looking at the Phaser that it is defective ???

Obviously if there is slop in the chain then it's safe to assume that a tensioner or guide rail has failed.

Things I have done to the truck so far that only helped preventing it from stalling when coming to a stop:

Spark Plugs
Throttle body cleaned
MAF cleaned
Fuel filter
Oil change with 10W-30

UPDATE 05/29/18:

I changed the drivers side VCT solenoid today. I drove it around while and I am not getting any codes or pending codes coming up.

However the truck still wants to idle rough and make the diesel sounds if put in the right circumstances. It really only happens when I feather the throttle from a stop, kinda rev it and then let of then rev again, like you would do if you are trying to get the guy next to you to race.

If you just give it gas and rev it smoothly then the clanky diesel noise goes away and the truck runs great. When I had the valve cover off, I did check to see that the timing mark and phaser ring are aligned, not sure if that means anything ??? Also, the chain is tight and there doesn't appear to be anything broken i.e guides/tensioner although it is tough to see clearly.

To me if just seems like there is LOW oil pressure around idle/low rpm and it just starts clanking. As soon as you rev it up, everything is fine and the engine sounds great.

What are the next steps for me ? What should I take a look at from here ?


Would love to get your thoughts,

Bimmerod

 

@Bimmerod


Thanks for your message - though sorry you are having the same issue. (I've been there - back before my timing job)


I will say, sadly, at your mileage a timing job may not be far into your future. And that shouldn't be a slam on Ford. 170k miles is not unreasonable life for steel timing chains on any type or brand vehicle. My timing trouble codes and bad sounds began around there. I tried lots of things up to 212k when I broke down and did the timing job. I don't recommend delaying the inevitable because it 'could' have resulted in a catastrophic failure (though it didn't).


Don't trust your 'chain' inspection from the valve covers. Need to bore scope to see guides. Chances are "GOOD" that you have broken chain guides. EVEN then, the valve spring tension against cam lobes can keep the chain feeling tight on the visable side depending on where in the engine stroke it came to rest on shutdown. A fairly inexpensive and easy (and VERY beneficial) diagnostic procedure is to remove the oil pan and look for / clean out plastic pieces from broken chain guides. If they are in there - they sink and get sucked up into the oil pump pickup screen - blocking off proper 'volume' flow. That is a MAJOR cause of timing issues. Though usually the over-retarded codes.


Your 0345 an 0349 codes can be one of several causes (including the above described scenario) - but if phaser mechanical related, it is inside the phaser with the phaser vanes or little spring loaded locking pin worn or not locking phaser at base. Or as I mentioned in the prior post - from a piece of broken chain guide getting caught on and bending one of the 5 haser 'fingers'. Kinda difficult to tell by Visual inspection.

Keep in mind what unplugging VCT solenoids does - and don't draw erroneous deductions from it. The PCM "DOES NOT" request any retard < 800 RPM or 25% engine load. That means there 'should' be no duty cycle pulses on the VCT solenoid and it should be "CLOSED" - routing 100% of 'available' oil flow and pressure into the 'advance' (or 'no-retard') chambers of the phaser. If the VCT is sticky or not working right - unplugging them wouldn't tell you much. "Wrapping on it with the but of a screw driver will basically tell you more.


What you CAN do is employ the 'opposite' concept. ENERGIZE the VCT solenoid while at idle. If you take a steel file, 50 ohm 10 watt resistor, straight pin and an alligator jumper clip. Pierce the VCT solenoid control wire with the straight pin. Connect the jumper wire to the straight pin and the other end to the 50 ohm resistor. Ground the steel file and 'scrape' the 50 ohm resistor lead along the steel file. (This fairly closely replicates the PCM's 50 - 70 % duty cycle pulses that will proportionately open the VCT solenoid, routing 50-70% available oil flow into the phaser retard chambers). If the cam on that bank moves ,- independently retards, idle will go to hell. When you stop - if idle returns to normal or as it was, the available oil pressure / flow is probably pushing the phaser back to 'no-retard' state or at least where it was. If not, and you accelerate to raise oil pressure above idle pressure ---- and THAT corrects the rough idle, you probably have a low idle oil pressure or poor / worn out phaser.


This particular problem is just not an easy one. There are lots of 'variables' to consider. Almost anything you do can have multiple results / meanings. Plus any part is hard enough to swap out that almost anything you decide to do quickly balloons into a full timing job.


Whatever you decide - Good Luck

 

@F150Torqued

UPDATE 06-04-18

I pulled the oil pan off to see what's going on in the bottom end.

Here are the pictures of what I found. Please let me know what I'm looking at here.




Found this in my Oil Pan - What did this fall off ???






A little bit of metal in my pickup.



Not the cleanest engine around.

Thoughts ?

Bimmerod

 

That's a thrust bearing! Certainly not good, but not necessarily the end of the world. new ones can be slipped back in by removing main bearing cap and slip in up and around the crankshaft with all the crankshaft 'walk' slack pushed to the other end. Inspect that main bearing and crank journal real well, check crankshaft 'walk' after your done and go back together with it.


That would be a major source of degraded oil pressure in the lower end - and hence in the upper end. And very likely the source of your P0345 and P0349. Whether replacing the thrust bearing will regain lost oil pressure and/or cure the codes is an unknown. Based strictly on how much 'other stuff' along the crankshaft was rubbing against **** it's not supposed to and how much steel shavings circulated through the engine. Basically - you can't worry about that right now. I'd definitely add a good aftermarket oil pressure gauge.


The crap caught in the pickup screen (I can't tell exactly how much restriction it presented) "COULD" be the source of your 345 & 349 codes. Cavitation (whipping up air bubbles) in the oil galleys caused by an obstruction in there can definitely cause serious degraded oil pressure throughout the engine. Air bubbles compress (just like air in brake lines makes the brake pedal spongy), and keep the phasers as well as cam chain tensioners from working efficiently.


Good luck - hope you caught this early enough to not have serious or long term effect.

 

@F150Torqued

Thank you again for all the great info. Other people on other forums mentioned that the motor would need to be rebuilt. Glad you were hear to share your wisdom.

I took everything off yesterday and found the (2) rear thrust washer were completely worn out and it was the front single washer that was in my oil pan.



Little to no wear on the Crank itself which is good.



Both rear thrust washer were toast.

Got it back together yesterday and cranked it up. Everything sounded fine and quiet. I didn't have time to drive it around so it was just in the driveway but I will take it out today and see how she runs over distance. So far so good, making progress here.

Any reason why these fail in the first place ? Is it just a poor design ? Are they going to fail again or with proper maintenance will they last 250k ?

Thanks again,

Bimmerod

 

UPDATE 6-7-18a-

Alright, drove it around awhile and puts some miles on it. I am not getting any codes and it seems to idle fine when coming to a stop.

I can however "induce" the low oil pressure symptoms by putting it in reverse and holding the brake while applying a little throttle. After that it will do it's low oil pressure dance.

If I apply a little throttle and release the brake then everything goes back to normal, idles fine and oil pressure is back to normal. Or if I pop it into neutral and rev the gas a little it goes back to normal operation.

I was really hoping those thrust washers would do the trick for the low oil pressure issue. It seems as though there are yet additional issues causing this, unfortunately.

Thoughts ?

Bimmerod

 

I really do not have an answer or even a plausible theory why one engine will chew up thrust washers and another of the same model will not. Something must cause additional 'longitudinal' force on the crankshaft beyond what slamming on the brakes or jack rabbit starts. Why yours in 160K and not mine in 235k?? (and while I maintain it with perfection, I don't baby it. Getting scratch from a red light and seeing 5200 rpm shifts out of first has happened plenty of times).


I wonder 'if' your symptom being brought on by torqueing the engine up in reverse with brakes could be giving some clue? Not that I can see what it would be. I wonder if it could be something so silly as PS or A/C pulley not being aligned good with the serpentine groves keeping the crankshaft slack pushed to one end???


Perhaps someone with much more first hand experience or racing engine mechanic can shed more light on it.

 

Update 6-8-18

The crazy thing is that I cannot get it to do the low oil pressure situation by stalling it or whatever while it is Cold. It will not miss a beat when it's Cold.

However, after it gets warmed up that is when I can force it to go into the low oil pressure mode where it sounds like a diesel. Where I can hear definite valve train noise.

The difficulty is trying to figure out exactly what part of the engine is having the lack of oil sound.

At first I thought maybe the computer was doing something weird but since I can hear the obvious lack of oil engine sounds it must be something else.

Is it possible for the oil pump to function normally above idle and then for some reason under the right circumstances fail to operate properly around 700 RPM ???

I am just perplexed as to what else could be going here ???

Thoughts ?

Thanks,

Bimmerod

 

YES.


THAT symptom 'stinks' of the beginning stages of timing chain / tensioners / phasers needing replacement. If you are still getting P0345 and P0349 - confirms this. Can't explain without becomming a lengthy & wordy post. But I'll try.


The phaser's ability to 'HOLD' its internal vanes firmly at advance (the idle state) is dependent on TWO things. 1) adequate oil pressure; 2) phaser's internal locking pin capturing the phaser at base position (zero retard or IOW full advance). Oil naturally thins and oil pump output and pressure naturally declines accoringly.


There is a mechanical 'threshold' where available oil flow & pressure through the VCT solenoids can 'hold' the phasers / camshaft 'firmly' against advance end of the phaser chambers. When oil pressure declines below that level (IDK PSI in heads - past restrictors in the head - but lower end is usually somewhere around ~ 14 to 16 lbs. _THEN_ the irregular torque on the camshaft, created by cam lobes pushing down valve springs, then the valve springs pushing the cam forward on cam lobe heal causes the vanes inside the phaser to 'SLAP' against the ends of phaser chambers. ie: What sounds like a 'diesel' at idle.


Degredation of oil pressure with age/miles comes from several factors. General engine / oil pump ware, the phaser vanes loose their ability to seal oil pressure inside chambers, and tensioner seals can be a problem.


Since you have removed pan and there is no oil pump pickup obstruction - that eliminates the cause being broken chain guide pieces / debris degrading oil pickup flow. But in your case - having HAD 'cratered' thrust washers, I can imagine that put additional 'strain' & ware on the oil pump. As the crank walked forward and backward, the oil pump 'gearator' would have been forced HARD against the front and back inside the gearator chamber.


The phasers slapping vanes back / and forward against the ends of chambers (OR working excess slack in the locking pin) causes the cam position sensor signal to PCM to be VERY irregular / nasty / ragged. That's one of the places where the P0349 (intermittent) comes from. The P0345 can result from the phaser not being advanced to 'BASE' and 'LOCKED' with the locking pin at engine shutdown - because of deficient idle oil pressure. _THEN_ it is set up for P0345 upon startup (when there is NO oil pressure). The drag on camshaft rotation caused by lobes depressing valve springs causes the phaser to be in a seriously retarded position during startup before oil pressure can come up and push the phaser back to base position.


FordTechMakeUloco has come out recently with a new video that is most applicable here:


Sorry for the winded reply. ---- You did ask for thoughts. Got more of them than I got money - for sure. LOL

 

UPDATE 06-18-18

Well after driving it around for a day or so it was apparent that the "low oil pressure" issues were not resolved by the Thrust Washer replacement. After the engine got good and HOT it would idle poorly and try to stall. So needless to say the only step left to take was a complete timing job.

So this weekend I jumped in and got it done.

Replaced the following:
Timing Chains
Timing Guides
Tensioners
Phasers
Oil Pump
After getting everything back together the truck fired right up and actually sounded good. I let it warm up and topped off the coolant reservoir.

It look like the MAIN issue stemmed from the Tensioner seals being completely decentigrated-


Tensioner seal gone


Tensioner seal gone

I then proceeded to drive it around a bit. As soon as I left the driveway it was running rough and didn't have any power at all. It was stumbly and wouldn't accelerate very well. I wasn't getting any actual codes initially but after a short trip they showed up.

P0300
P0303
P0304

So it looks like when you touch a wire loom in these, then all bets are off. I did the plugs prior to this repair when trying to resolve things and did not have any of these codes after putting it back together, WTF ? I swear you fix something and happen to move or unplug something else and then you have a new host of issues.

Since the plugs are brand new I guess I will move around those coil packs to see if they are the issue or there is some kind of wiring issue in that area.

Any other thoughts ? At this point my brain is fried and 12 hours over the past two days is rough.

Thanks,

Bimmerod

 

@Bimmerod I don't _think_ the misfire issue has anything to do with the timing job. I believe the PCM monitors things closely enough that there would be a timing code if it was related ---- beyond just 'jostling' with stuff like the harness. I would focus on electrical kind of stuff - including boots and springs good clean connections and COP snap connections.
I don't know your build date, but if you have the earlier build date, there could be some useful information in these two posts.
https://www.f150online.com/forums/v8...ml#post5159499
https://www.f150online.com/forums/v8...ml#post5161039

 

UPDATE 06-21-18

I played around with it today to see if I could figure anything out.

I swapped out the COP from cyl 3 & 4 and moved them to 1 & 2.

After this I was getting a P0352 code which tells me that the cyl # 2 was having an issue. I swapped a COP from another F150 on cyl #2 and that seemed to fix the issue. I no longer have a P0352 code.

I drove it around a bit and got it warmed up and now I have a "pending" code P0022. How the hell could I have a P0022 code when not only the VCT solenoid on the drivers side is brand new but ALL of the timing components are new.

This motor is really pissing me off.

Where do I go next with this POS???

Thanks,

Bimmerod

 

I am very sorry for your continued problems / hassles.

I do not propose to have the absolute answer. I do know that there are so many 'moving' parts working together it often gets hard to see the trees for the forest - or the forest because of all the trees. It might help to go slowly over technical operation of things again.

P035x is frequently misdiagnosed as a 'misfire'. Technically it is not a misfire, it is a 'condition in the ignition circuit' that has PREVENTED the sparkplug from generating a spark across the plug. /// Of course there was no explosion in the cylinder because of this, but it was very predictable - not a Misfire: ie: P030x. There was known to be NO SPARK to ignite an explosion. /// The PCM can determine this by monitoring the ignition circuit for presence of 12 volts through the coil initially, and the 'reverse' KICK generated from the magnetic field collapsing that causes 'current' to flow in the secondary and a good reverse voltage KICK back in the primary circuit. An OPEN in primary OR secondary COP coil will cause a P035x. Most common cause is a broken clip on the COP primary plug. P035x, check the integrity of wiring on COP primary, (especially the plastic clip) and clean terminals on the secondary and 'spring' to the spark plug.

P0022 is more problematic. Cam timing can ONLY be 'retarded' by physical design - between Zero degrees retard up to about 60 to 62 degrees. So in order to be 'OVER RETARDED', it by necessity got into a position of some 'retard' and when the PCM 'requested' or 'commanded' oil flow to be routed INTO advance chambers of the Phaser to push the cam back to base ZERO retard position - IT DIDN'T happen 'quick enough'. It 'stayed' in somewhat of a retarded state. (Technically > 5 degrees for more than 5 seconds will trigger one of these cam positioning codes). The fact that it is 'pending' says it didn't happen long enough or enough times "YET" to trigger the DTC.

In order for cams to return to base position after being commanded into a retard state - the VCT solenoid must 'CLOSE' to route OIL flow/pressure into 'advance' chambers in the Phaser and 'PUSH' the vanes toward an "UN-RETARDED" state - or base timing position of ZERO retard. This action of course must 'overcome' any rotational drag in the camshaft, valve spring - roller followers etc.

Since you had a 'chewed up' thrust washer previously - I would check / verify / make sure the screen(s) on the VCT solenoid have not trapped steel or copper shavings and clogged up - or 'flush' the VCT solenoid out making sure it is not 'binding' inside and can open / close smoothly. I would also be 'suspicious' of oil pressure at lower RPMs following the episode with the thrust washers - AS WELL as excessive wear / loss of oil pressure in the cam bearings. Any oil pressure loss there degrades the Phaser's ability to 'position' the cams based on oil pressure.

The PCM 'calculates' how much retard it desires, and sends a porportional (duty cycle) signal to the VCT solenoid to 'proportionally' open the valve and route OIL flow & pressure into retard chambers within the Phaser. When LESS retard (in other words 'advance' BACK toward ZERO), the duty cycle is desired The PCM constantly monitors the CAM's ACTUAL position via compares it to 'Requested' position. The 'difference' is posted on OBDII as VCT Error. For deeper diagnostics CAM ERROR for bank 2 (PID # 091D) would be the signal to focus on to see if changes is having the desired effect.

 

have you considered locking out the phasers at this point? everyone seems to be against it but i have awesome power and still get 17mpg with all my camping stuff and the cruse set on 75

 

Thanks for the detailed response. What I don't get is that VCT on bank 2 is brand new. I cleaned all of the passage ways when it was apart. the screens were spotless and there was no evidence anything got up there.

I do know the "real" misfire is P0302 for cyl #2 but liek you said there may have been an issue with the plug on that COP, as the locking tab was broken off.

The even crazier thing is I can STILL make it do the low oil pressure clanking diesel rattle under load at idle after it's hot!!!.

After everything that has been changed I cannot understand how I could still have low oil pressure, ever ???

Here are all the parts I have changed:

Thrust Washers (OEM)

Oil Pan Gasket set

Oil Filter (OEM)

Trans Filter/Gasket

Trans Fluid (OEM)

Marvel Mystery Oil

Fuel Treatment

Throttle Body gasket

VCT Solenoid (OEM)

Air box Seal (OEM)

Fuel Filter (OEM)

Spark Plugs (OEM)

Oil Filter (OEM)

Serpentine Belt (OEM)

Motor Oil 7qts (OEM)

Wheel alignment

Timing Chains

Timing guides

Timing Tensioners

Phasers

Oil Pump (M340)

I have spent over $1700 on this so it's a little frustrating.

My 2004 F150 4.6L has 269k on it and I just did the whole timing job (not oil pump) at 265k and everything worked out great. I had no issues whatsoever on it. Runs like a top. No check engine lights, no codes, nothing.

This 06 5.4L is a real pain in the A$$. I know the 4.6L is weak on power but it seems like a much better option for peace of mind than owning a 5.4L.


I might just have to go there since none of this makes any sense.

Bimmerod