First, I want to apologize to Y2Koffroad for the thread hijack. It looks like we are getting way off topic.
Second, MGDfan Hmmmmmmmmmm, I like that,I also apologize for not being completely clear. I use the term mechanical and electronic so loosely at work that the average person may misinterpret.
When I say “ mechanical “ I mean timing and metering is controlled by the fuel pump. Injection occurs either by fuel pressur overcoming the minimum operating pressure of the injector, or by means of a pushrod. For example. The first and second generation dodges with our engines used mechanical. The first gen’s used a mechanical pump, mechanical injectors. Second gen uses an electronic pump ( metering and timing with help off an ecm ) and mechanical injectors. Fuel psi overcomes min. opening psi. In our heavier Auto engines, l-10, m-11, ntc-855, used a PT fuel system which stood for pressure time. Pump controls metering and timing, pushrod injects fuel. Mechanical injector. Now all of these can be tested with some type of equip. Smaller dodge injectors could be pop- tested, leakage tested, etc. However, once one is missing, the customer usually wants to replace all 6 provided that there is not any other cause for the miss ( fuel pump, scored cyl, etc. ) A good tech will know right away. These injectors are cheap and its not cost effective to test providing there is a miss and it is an injector. Our labor rate is $95.00 an hour. I am talking about the first gen dodges now. If there is a scored cylinder, or multiple, then yes we will check them. You will know that by cutting oil filter open and/or dropping pan. Warranty WILL ONLY PAY for ones hat failed. If 1 failed, you are getting 1.
2nd gen dodges, little more expensive, better design. Usually when 1 goes, you replace just the one because these are good injectors, unless of course the customer wants all 6. These you test by using our software and cutting cyls. Out. If its warranty, You’ll get however many failed. You can also pop test these. 3rd gen dodges use Electronically controlled injectors. Solenoid on top controls how much and when the fuel is injected. The actual fuel psi lifts the needle of its seat and injection occurs.
These of course are very expensive. You can perform a leakage test while they are still in the engine. Other than that, you do not disassemble, check flow, etc.
Our heavier engines ( as mentioned above ) could have the injectors flow tested, rebuilt, etc. We used to do this 10 years ago. We had all the testing equip. for these. State of the art pump room. Now these injectors are so cheap, all are out of warranty ( unless a recon engine has been installed ) and if it fails under warranty or not, you are getting an injector. We sold all of our testing equipment as a lot of distributors have. It is no longer cost efficient to the customer labor wise, plus there is a 1 year warranty on recon inj. As opposed to 90 days when we used to rebuild and test. Also, downtime is critical. If they are not on the road, they are not making money! The electronic version of these engines ( M-11, ISM, N-14) are the $700+ injectors. Fuel pump provides constant psi ( 145- 195Psi, some were 125-195 psi) ,

 

Pumps fuel through passages in the head,Solenoid on top of injector controls timing and metering through the ecm, fuel is injected by means of pushrod. There IS NO FLOW TESTING THESE PERIOD!!!NEVER HAS BEEN. Solenoid spec is .5 ohms. Example: Truck comes in for miss, no fault codes, Run a cutout test #5 shows bad. 99% of time it is the injector. If there is knocking or fault codes then we may have to look further. Failed solenoid will log a fault. Mechanical damage will have knocking. I have seen a couple of times where it was the ecm. The above mentioned are the only 2 ways to check these injectors, unless of course there is the visible inspection, I.E broken spring, broken tip.If its warranty. You are getting an injector. If it failed open ( dumping fuel ) and if its run long enough, you can score a cylinder. There is no testing here, if its stuck open you are blowing smoke like an old steam engine. If its stuck closed, no smoke- dead miss. It is that simple!!! $700.00 injector. More cost efficient to replace with 1 year warrnaty then to devise tools to test, then disassmemble, then order precision machined parts, then reassemble, then re-test, then re-install, then only get 90 day warranty. Downtime 3-4 days. Replace injector with recon 1.5 hrs. You figure it out. Now, we have found that high mileage heavy duty engines with 450,000+ miles and semi-original injectors like to develop an intermittent, ghost miss as we like top call it. We always offer a 6 for 5 deal on these. Pay for 5, get 6. The reason is, the injectors wear at a certain rate, you stick a fresh injector, with tight clearances in the engine, the ecm will detect an imbalance and will try to compensate and not be able to. I have seen it too many times. Cust. Comes in, gets an inj., 2 weeks later in again for another inj for a DIFFERENT cylinder, back again 1 week later, different cyl. Serious down time. And labor cost. This is predominate in high mileages heavy engines but of course we offer this to anyone with the heavies regardless of mileage. Our newer ISX engines have went baxk to mechanical injectors, overhead cam, with timing and metering actuators on the side of the engine controlled by the ecm. You can still do a cutout through the ecm and can also do a leakage test with
Them still in the engine. So I am sorry I used our $700 injector as an example, we also have $1300 injectors that also have no flow testing. If you are that concerned why we do not have certain testing equip, write to Cummins and voice your concerns to them. My point is, as WRONG as it seems, warranty will only pay for what has failed. If all 8 of Y2K’s failed, than they will pay for all 8. Sorry Y2K.
MGDfan, if there are anymore Hmmmm’s, and you need any further questions regarding our testing practices, warranty practices, etc., feel free to call. Cummins Bridgeway 248-573-1900. Ask for Chris in service.
I also apologize for any spelling errors as I wrote this as fast as I could.

Good day sir!

 

this is why i run EV-1 24 lb. i dumped the EV-6's as soon as i heard of this.

 

Guys, no need to apologize for the thread hijack.. It is relevant and I don't mind at since it has taught me a little about injector troubleshooting.

I am a little disappointed to think that they might not replace the remaining injectors. From both a customer satisfaction standpoint I think that it would be the best decision to replace them all to keep the customer happy by providing a piece of mind that the potential points fo failure have been replaced.

From a business standpoint I would not want to risk leaving in parts with a potential defect that could result in yet another expensive warranty claim. In Ford's place I would change them out and send them back to the manufacturer.

The frustrating thing is that I bet if this weren't a warranty claim and I was paying the bill they would be pushing me toward getting a long block plus a set of injectors..

But whatever (as my girl says)... I will accept whatever fix they offer, but I will be the biggest pain in their @ss if it is not fixed correctly or develops problems down the road.

Thanks for the advice everyone... Looks like they'll have it ready for me tomorrow!

 

Good luck to you! Most techs see your point, believe me. It's the factory / warranty admin. that ties our hands when it comes to warranty.
Take care!

 

Wanted to add my thanks to Ruger for the 'mouthful' (LOL) & apologize for my part in the hijack

Cheers
Bubba

 

The main reason they don't replace all of them is because they put the same kind of NEW, JUNK INJECTORS back in. The dealer told me when i went back TWICE for injector problems, They have seen New ones go bad shortly after being installed. HELLO FORD.....TIME TO WAKE UP HERE!!! It's time to redesign these, or find a better supplier....

 

Agreed! How safe is a component that fails open! Its industry standard to design a component(whether mechanical or electrical) that fails in the safe mode. In this case, closed would be the safe mode. This is a major design flaw. Anyone have the specs on our injectors(flow rates) because if Ford wont make my issue right, then I will!

 

Thanks for the support.. I appreciate your input and I know where you are coming from; I've taken a factory service reps for a test drive before over problems with my former Y2K... They can be, well...

 

Agreed as well. There is obviously a major flaw in the design of these injectors yet they sit by and do nothing, except pay out the occasional warranty claims. They probably are making more money on out of warranty repairs on the problem at this point anyhow.

I'm thinking I may just start researching a set of aftermarket injectors, but I hate the thought of investing in something that fixes a design flaw. Thequestion there is where to begin.

 

Well i got a list for FORD to start with....
1. better injectors
2. better spark plug design
3. better brake pads (brake dust)
4. fix the spongy brake pedal
5. better seat bottom cushions. (mine replaced 3 times in 12k miles)
6. fix the driveline thunks...
7. make better power. i should not have to buy a tuner.
8. fix the vibration issues....

 

That, just does not sound right.

Glad I could accomodate you.

 

Called late this afternoon to see where they stood with the repair and of course it's not ready. I'm not sure if they fed me a line of BS, but I was told that they had to pull the engine again. Supposedly the short block came with the wrong oil pan from Ford and when they went to mount it up, they discovered that it was hitting the frame rail.

I don't undertand why they'd need to pull the engine because of an incorrect oil pan, but the whole conversation I had did not inspire confidence that the repair is being done properly. I was told that it would be ready tomorrow... We shall see.

 

I do SURPRIZE visits... They cant Lie to your face very well..

 

Good idea! I won't bother to call tomorrow, I think I will just show up. If nothing else, I should be able to ruffle some feathers!