Vandalism or bad gas from station?
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Originally Posted by roadawg
I thought that's what they were there for! Keeping foreign matter out of the engine from the fuel tank. Wouldn't the filter have plugged first? I had a 1990 F150 with twin tanks. The intank fuel pumps "seized" about 4 months apart with 115,000 miles on them. Cost $500 to replace each one. It's funny they both siezed about 15-20 mins after filling up at a service station in Carson City, NV. The kicker is one of the replacement pumps (both were new FORD pumps) seized 13 months later! Yep, also with full tank of gas from same station about 15-20 mins after leaving. At least I could run on the second tank and nothing got into the engine. Ford wouldn't make good on the new $300 pump because it had been over 12 months since I bought it. Yep ,finally quit buying gas at that station.
Fuel filters do just that, filter.
They stop solids, rust, gunk, sugar, etc. from passing. They do NOT stop liquids.
Water is a liquid, JP4 (jet plane fuel that is often carried in tanker trucks) kerosene, heating oil are all liquids.
They pass right through any filter that will pass gasoline.
Water can be filtered out by a water separator, basically a bowl that lets water drop out of the gas in transit.
Diesels usually have these.
They are expensive and you have to maintain them.
Since they are seldom needed on most gasoline vehicles makers don't install them.
Most people would complain about having to change a 'useless' water separator. They would also complain about the cost. One person in a thousand gets damage from water in any two or three year period. Thus for 99.9% of people it saves money not to have them.
Even if you had a water separator, the other liquids would pass right through it as they weigh close to the same as gasoline.
There have been tens of thousands of laws passed controlling, regulating gasoline dealers, transporters and refineries. This adds about 50-60% to the cost of gasoline.
Net result: Bad gas is about as common today as it was 50 years ago before 99% of the laws were passed.
Wow, let’s pass some more laws, make em do more. That’ll' work...
Chris
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Joined: Oct 2006
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From: San Diego
It seems to me that the Ford Dealer would have the best insight into what might have happened.
If it was a local gas station, the Dealer would see other vehicles coming with the same problem. They would also have an opinion about what the substance was. Mechanics fix cars all day long, so they have seen it all. I would talk to the lead mechanic who actually worked on your truck and ask him if he has ever seen it before.
If you have a sample, there are labs that can run tests to figure out what it is. And it is not as expensive as you might think. Maybe $100. It may be worth the investment to prevent a future problem. If it is a substance that can get into a gas station or something "someone" is likely to add to your tank. That is the question they can answer.
If I were you. My first stop would be to the auto parts store for a locking gas cap. And I would start parking in places which offer the best security (you). Better lighting, more people around, etc. You just never know who might do something like that. Not just kids. Why Ford doesn't put a locking device or inside release on their vehicles anymore is beyond me. But gas prices alone make it worth while to add one.
My .02......Now that we have all put our detective hats on
If it was a local gas station, the Dealer would see other vehicles coming with the same problem. They would also have an opinion about what the substance was. Mechanics fix cars all day long, so they have seen it all. I would talk to the lead mechanic who actually worked on your truck and ask him if he has ever seen it before.
If you have a sample, there are labs that can run tests to figure out what it is. And it is not as expensive as you might think. Maybe $100. It may be worth the investment to prevent a future problem. If it is a substance that can get into a gas station or something "someone" is likely to add to your tank. That is the question they can answer.
If I were you. My first stop would be to the auto parts store for a locking gas cap. And I would start parking in places which offer the best security (you). Better lighting, more people around, etc. You just never know who might do something like that. Not just kids. Why Ford doesn't put a locking device or inside release on their vehicles anymore is beyond me. But gas prices alone make it worth while to add one.
My .02......Now that we have all put our detective hats on
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Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Mount Airy,MD
Not sure if this is your problem, but I did find some info about gelled gas that clogs carbs and injectors.
4. MIXING GASOLINE CONTAINING MTBE AND GASOLINE CONTAINING
ETHANOL HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CREATE A GEL-LIKE SUBSTANCE THAT CLOGS
PASSAGES IN CARBURETORS AND INJECTOR SYSTEMS, AND SHOULD BE
AVOIDED.
You can find the whole thing here.
I know the station that I deal with had there tanks cleaned before they could start using the 10% ethanol fuel.
4. MIXING GASOLINE CONTAINING MTBE AND GASOLINE CONTAINING
ETHANOL HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CREATE A GEL-LIKE SUBSTANCE THAT CLOGS
PASSAGES IN CARBURETORS AND INJECTOR SYSTEMS, AND SHOULD BE
AVOIDED.
You can find the whole thing here.
I know the station that I deal with had there tanks cleaned before they could start using the 10% ethanol fuel.
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From: newark,nj
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Originally Posted by Virilha
The nonsense written by a 'reporter' implies that since he was late on paying the fees he may have been putting some evil undisclosed substance in the tanks, which might have leaked, which might have contaminated the ground water...
A true example of an idiot reporter blowing a bureaucrats attack on a business into a nonsense story.
It has nothing to do with water in gas, or anything else in this thread.
Chris
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From: SoCal
Originally Posted by ChrisAdams
Lots of thoughts on this. I pumped gas for awhile, managed several stations, and then owned a station.
I’ve seen employees roll back the meters on the pump, pocket the sales receipts, then run a few hundred gallons of water into the ground tank to cover the missing volume.
Bad gas is not common, but not unheard of.
Truck drivers are supposed to flush the tanks on their rigs if they change fuel types. Guess what? Many don't.
Truck driving was once a middle class on up profession. Due to law changes and lots of new regulations most truck drivers are from the working poor class today.
You get what you pay for.
A little JP4, diesel, heating oil etc. left in the tank after another run and you can have lots of fun with your fuel.
Water can be added by the top of the ground tank not being secured, sealed or greased when it rains.
Once water gets into the turbine pump it gets mixed nicely and dumped into your tank. A little later it settles on the bottom of your tank.
To suddenly stop your truck you would have to be putting in almost pure water. A 1-10% mix will not show up till later.
The gas pickup in your tank is designed to 'miss' water by not picking up the very bottom layer of liquid in the tank.
So you get water and it settles below the pickup. Then a week later you take a bad bounce from a speed bump and Voila' water in the fuel system.
I've had a serious dose of water semi- incapacitate a Nissan 120 miles after I fueled up.
And two hours after a bad bump through the water up into the pickup.
Water in gas looks oily, and tends to settle to the bottom after about an hour or three. Put a sample of the gas in a clean glass container and let it sit. By the next day you can tell if it was water because there will be drops of clear 'oil' at the bottom of the jar. Don't disturb it while you are waiting and don't use a jar you just washed with water...
If it is heating oil, JP4 etc. any analysis place can prove it. You can also get a small container of fuel from each of the two places you suspect and have that analyzed. The results would be proof that would stand up in court.
Then you could sue them for damages as well as repair costs. Most people don't bother.
All that said, I will tell you the number one cause of fuel contamination is kids.
Not vandals, not delinquents, not just neighborhood kids.
Your own kids.
Kids love to run water into tanks, put sand into tanks, put objects into tanks. They love to play gas station with just about every kind of liquid.
So think about who may have had access to your tank before you bother with chasing the stations.
Chris
I’ve seen employees roll back the meters on the pump, pocket the sales receipts, then run a few hundred gallons of water into the ground tank to cover the missing volume.
Bad gas is not common, but not unheard of.
Truck drivers are supposed to flush the tanks on their rigs if they change fuel types. Guess what? Many don't.
Truck driving was once a middle class on up profession. Due to law changes and lots of new regulations most truck drivers are from the working poor class today.
You get what you pay for.
A little JP4, diesel, heating oil etc. left in the tank after another run and you can have lots of fun with your fuel.
Water can be added by the top of the ground tank not being secured, sealed or greased when it rains.
Once water gets into the turbine pump it gets mixed nicely and dumped into your tank. A little later it settles on the bottom of your tank.
To suddenly stop your truck you would have to be putting in almost pure water. A 1-10% mix will not show up till later.
The gas pickup in your tank is designed to 'miss' water by not picking up the very bottom layer of liquid in the tank.
So you get water and it settles below the pickup. Then a week later you take a bad bounce from a speed bump and Voila' water in the fuel system.
I've had a serious dose of water semi- incapacitate a Nissan 120 miles after I fueled up.
And two hours after a bad bump through the water up into the pickup.
Water in gas looks oily, and tends to settle to the bottom after about an hour or three. Put a sample of the gas in a clean glass container and let it sit. By the next day you can tell if it was water because there will be drops of clear 'oil' at the bottom of the jar. Don't disturb it while you are waiting and don't use a jar you just washed with water...
If it is heating oil, JP4 etc. any analysis place can prove it. You can also get a small container of fuel from each of the two places you suspect and have that analyzed. The results would be proof that would stand up in court.
Then you could sue them for damages as well as repair costs. Most people don't bother.
All that said, I will tell you the number one cause of fuel contamination is kids.
Not vandals, not delinquents, not just neighborhood kids.
Your own kids.
Kids love to run water into tanks, put sand into tanks, put objects into tanks. They love to play gas station with just about every kind of liquid.
So think about who may have had access to your tank before you bother with chasing the stations.
Chris
FIRST CLASS POST...!!!
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From: WY
On the East Coast BP and CITGO have had quite a few stations get contaminated fuel this year. Whatever the contaminate is, it turns the fuel red/pink. As several hundred people are affected by these bad loads of gas, they typically make the local news.
I worked at a gas station for years and have seen it all. Whenever we had problems, it was either too much water in the underground tanks, diesel/kerosene in the delivery truck's tanks or too much/wrong additive from the depot. Your fuel filter will clog-up with just about any foreign substance put into your tank. So, the kids and vandalism theory is pretty much busted. Your engine will run fine with sugar/syrup in the tank. It leaves a sooty residue when burned, but goes through the fuel system OK. Not all of it will dissolve and ends up as gelatinous goo at the bottom of your tank.
I worked at a gas station for years and have seen it all. Whenever we had problems, it was either too much water in the underground tanks, diesel/kerosene in the delivery truck's tanks or too much/wrong additive from the depot. Your fuel filter will clog-up with just about any foreign substance put into your tank. So, the kids and vandalism theory is pretty much busted. Your engine will run fine with sugar/syrup in the tank. It leaves a sooty residue when burned, but goes through the fuel system OK. Not all of it will dissolve and ends up as gelatinous goo at the bottom of your tank.
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From: Illinois
Wow, a lot of great info here guys, thanks for all your input! Doesn't bad gas usually leave your exhaust smelling like rotten eggs? I had that too for about 2 days.
The mechanic at the dealer said he had never seen that problem with the gel-like substance before. The Service manager said the same thing. My dealer is about 20 miles from the station where the incident happened, so not too sure if anyone with the same problem would have went to the same dealer.
Locking gas cap now seems like a great idea.
No kids around my neighborhood lately, but not to say that it couldn't happen.
The difference started taking place about 90-115 miles after I filled up. Considering I only topped off my tank from 1/2 full, could this have been what made it take longer, because I didn't use a full tank of bad gas?
The mechanic at the dealer said he had never seen that problem with the gel-like substance before. The Service manager said the same thing. My dealer is about 20 miles from the station where the incident happened, so not too sure if anyone with the same problem would have went to the same dealer.
Locking gas cap now seems like a great idea.
No kids around my neighborhood lately, but not to say that it couldn't happen.
The difference started taking place about 90-115 miles after I filled up. Considering I only topped off my tank from 1/2 full, could this have been what made it take longer, because I didn't use a full tank of bad gas?
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From: Austin TX
Originally Posted by runnerboy
I try to only fill up at gas stations that are the top brand names such as texaco, amico, bp, shell. I do this because they are less likely to have bad gas. It may cost more, but at the cheaper gas stations...you are more likely to find they sometimes put water in the tanks to sell less actual gas so that they can sell it cheaper. Also, there suppliers are cheaper and not as good..hence the cheaper prices. It may cost a dollar or two more per fill up but i dont have to worry about my engine having problems and paying $$$$$ to get it fixed. Its like eating at mcDonalds compared to subway. at mcdonalds...you are putting more junk in your arteries.
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From: CO
Several months ago, I had my injectors replaced under warranty because of the "bad gas" theory. I had no power at higher throttle, so after going to the third dealer, the problem was resolved. Since then, I have had no problems with the truck, and even seems to run better than new. Anyway, the tech said that the worst injectors (plugged) seemed to have a gummy residue inside limiting flow. He seemed to think that I got some bad fuel somewhere because the filter also looked fairly nasty. They did not have to cover this under warranty if it was bad fuel, but they took care of me none-the-less.
Tracking down the cause of these problems can be a frustrating chore.
Tracking down the cause of these problems can be a frustrating chore.
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Originally Posted by GordoPanocho
Okay, you're free to fill up at "branded" gas stations if that makes you feel better/safer. But, your logic (or lack thereof) behind your post is just not valid. Nothing personal, but I don't think you have (true) knowledge of the gasoline industry as a whole. A station would be a damn fool to purposely add water to their tanks! You'll get such "water" problems from the branded stations just as much as the unbranded. It's not a matter of it being added, but more of a leak in the underground tanks, etc. All gas supplied by our corner convenience store initially comes from the same refineries. Here in Texas, the gas starts in Houston and is then piped around the state, etc. The branded stations such as Texaco, Amico, etc. usually add an "additive" that may or may not improve the performance of your vehicle. It's called MARKETING ... so that the general public will think they're getting something more for their money ... which may or may not be the case. Do they really "add" anything ... yes they do. But, it's generally something that'll only benefit a user if they keep their vehicle for 10+ years. Otherwise, you'll probably never see a real difference. Your vehicle may run better, may seem to run better, or may just drive the same on any gas. Again, the unbranded stores are not buying cheaper gas. They're just not adding anything to it ... and not "branding" it for the consumers' benefit. I'm not "hating" here ... just trying to educate. I hope y'all can dig it.
Last edited by GB150; Nov 8, 2006 at 03:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by GB150
I only fuel up at large chains such as Exxon or Shell, etc. I have noticed differences in milage between even these major brand gas stations. My brother use to use gas only from "Race TracK" because it was always cheaper. After a few months his truck ran terrible and pinged like crazy. I have no idea if that chain uses any additives or not in their fuel. I just know his truck lost power and ran terribly. Most of the time the gas at the cheap stations is only maybe a nickel cheaper than the big name stations. 5 cents times 20 gallons equals a whole dollar. I'd rather spend an extra buck or two and avoid the lesser known stations. This wont guarantee you wont have any fuel related problems but I bet there's less of a chance.
And oddly, when I worked autoparts locally, we had more people with 'fuel problems' who bought at name brand places than the cheap generic places. This had to do more with the psychology of the customers than anything else, but still it was interesting.
A gas station that is clean, well managed and busy is a safe place to buy in almost any situation. A low volume station, a run down station, a station poorly managed is not a safe place most times. The sign and the price are second to this rule.
A side issue, Arco, surely a name brand, the commonest station in our area by far, is often the worst place to buy gas. They had some really bad emissions gas that even they admitted was causing problems.
Rather than dump millions of gallons on the ground, the state allowed them to sell it.
This was a few years ago. California had requested they use a really defective additive, and when it was found to blow head gaskets Arco asked for and got dispensation to continue selling it till it was all gone.
Name brand safer, maybe.
Chris