intake & exhaust systems = synergistic effects?
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From: ND
intake & exhaust systems = synergistic effects?
Synergy: conditions such that the total effect is greater than the sum of the individual effects
I've spent all day reading threads on both intake and exhaust systems and it occurred to me that adding both, would most likely increase each system's individual beneficial effect.
Take 2 identical stock trucks. Let's say an intake added to stock truck 1 has measured gains of 15 hp, while an exaust is added to stock truck 2 measures gains of 10 hp. If both systems were added to both trucks, it would be logical to say that you could expect 25 hp gains, right?
Well, I've taken a few courses on fluid dynamics and I think you'd actually gain more than 25hp. Here's why: Theoretically, from the intake to the exhaust is a closed system. If you add an improvement on one end, you're going to still have the restrictive stock system on the other end. Even with the improved system on the one end, you're not going to maximize your gains because the other end isn't allowing the air to flow as well as it should. But, if you an improvement at both ends, now you can maximize the influent and effluent of that airflow, giving you more gains at each end...thus, you could expect more than 25hp. How much? no idea... But fluid dynamics tells me that if I'm restricting anything in the system, it will effect the entire system so those gains from running one end at stock and the other at aftermarket will not be as great per end as if I were running the entire system aftermarket.
Does anyone follow that logic? Does anyone think I'm on crack? Let me know what you guys think...
I've spent all day reading threads on both intake and exhaust systems and it occurred to me that adding both, would most likely increase each system's individual beneficial effect.
Take 2 identical stock trucks. Let's say an intake added to stock truck 1 has measured gains of 15 hp, while an exaust is added to stock truck 2 measures gains of 10 hp. If both systems were added to both trucks, it would be logical to say that you could expect 25 hp gains, right?
Well, I've taken a few courses on fluid dynamics and I think you'd actually gain more than 25hp. Here's why: Theoretically, from the intake to the exhaust is a closed system. If you add an improvement on one end, you're going to still have the restrictive stock system on the other end. Even with the improved system on the one end, you're not going to maximize your gains because the other end isn't allowing the air to flow as well as it should. But, if you an improvement at both ends, now you can maximize the influent and effluent of that airflow, giving you more gains at each end...thus, you could expect more than 25hp. How much? no idea... But fluid dynamics tells me that if I'm restricting anything in the system, it will effect the entire system so those gains from running one end at stock and the other at aftermarket will not be as great per end as if I were running the entire system aftermarket.
Does anyone follow that logic? Does anyone think I'm on crack? Let me know what you guys think...
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From: Canada
Re: intake & exhaust systems = synergistic effects?
Originally posted by black05f150
Synergy: conditions such that the total effect is greater than the sum of the individual effects
I've spent all day reading threads on both intake and exhaust systems and it occurred to me that adding both, would most likely increase each system's individual beneficial effect.
Take 2 identical stock trucks. Let's say an intake added to stock truck 1 has measured gains of 15 hp, while an exaust is added to stock truck 2 measures gains of 10 hp. If both systems were added to both trucks, it would be logical to say that you could expect 25 hp gains, right?
Well, I've taken a few courses on fluid dynamics and I think you'd actually gain more than 25hp. Here's why: Theoretically, from the intake to the exhaust is a closed system. If you add an improvement on one end, you're going to still have the restrictive stock system on the other end. Even with the improved system on the one end, you're not going to maximize your gains because the other end isn't allowing the air to flow as well as it should. But, if you an improvement at both ends, now you can maximize the influent and effluent of that airflow, giving you more gains at each end...thus, you could expect more than 25hp. How much? no idea... But fluid dynamics tells me that if I'm restricting anything in the system, it will effect the entire system so those gains from running one end at stock and the other at aftermarket will not be as great per end as if I were running the entire system aftermarket.
Does anyone follow that logic? Does anyone think I'm on crack? Let me know what you guys think...
Synergy: conditions such that the total effect is greater than the sum of the individual effects
I've spent all day reading threads on both intake and exhaust systems and it occurred to me that adding both, would most likely increase each system's individual beneficial effect.
Take 2 identical stock trucks. Let's say an intake added to stock truck 1 has measured gains of 15 hp, while an exaust is added to stock truck 2 measures gains of 10 hp. If both systems were added to both trucks, it would be logical to say that you could expect 25 hp gains, right?
Well, I've taken a few courses on fluid dynamics and I think you'd actually gain more than 25hp. Here's why: Theoretically, from the intake to the exhaust is a closed system. If you add an improvement on one end, you're going to still have the restrictive stock system on the other end. Even with the improved system on the one end, you're not going to maximize your gains because the other end isn't allowing the air to flow as well as it should. But, if you an improvement at both ends, now you can maximize the influent and effluent of that airflow, giving you more gains at each end...thus, you could expect more than 25hp. How much? no idea... But fluid dynamics tells me that if I'm restricting anything in the system, it will effect the entire system so those gains from running one end at stock and the other at aftermarket will not be as great per end as if I were running the entire system aftermarket.
Does anyone follow that logic? Does anyone think I'm on crack? Let me know what you guys think...
Seriously thought that makes sense, good thing i allready did that on my truck.
Later Trev
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Why yes by golly it stands to reason synergistically! Or is that the domino effect? I would guess, based on my experiences, that performance numbers as advertised use maximums or ideal benefit test scenarios. Meaning that 10 + 15 is likely not actually 25 or more when arbitrarily combined. Though intake and exhausts that are matched should give that highest net power increase for whatever the target might be. And the net gain might in some cases be greater than the individual results. Sometimes combination maximums meet for a synergistic peak at alternate points in the designed RPM response curve. Meaning a synergistic benefit for one area might knock over a domino or two in other areas of performance or drivability?
I wish I could just add up all those claimed ponies and even get more! But at least for me it doesn’t seem to work out quite that way!
I wish I could just add up all those claimed ponies and even get more! But at least for me it doesn’t seem to work out quite that way!
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From: Georgia on my mind...
Theoretically, from the intake to the exhaust is a closed system. If you add an improvement on one end, you're going to still have the restrictive stock system on the other end. Even with the improved system on the one end, you're not going to maximize your gains because the other end isn't allowing the air to flow as well as it should.
But, if you an improvement at both ends, now you can maximize the influent and effluent of that airflow, giving you more gains at each end...thus, you could expect more than 25hp. How much? no idea... But fluid dynamics tells me that if I'm restricting anything in the system, it will effect the entire system so those gains from running one end at stock and the other at aftermarket will not be as great per end as if I were running the entire system aftermarket.
Phew. I can't remember the last time I've had to think so hard on a weekend.
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Help, help bad science. Kill it before it spreads...
sorry, couldn't help it.
You can prove both points. On paper you can show an engine that has a very bad exhaust will gain n horsepower from an improved exhaust.
If it has a very poor intake, you can show gain of q horsepower from a better intake.
If the test engine was seriously deficient on both ends, and had a over designed cam, and a plentiful fuel system, good heads, etc. you could add n and q and get a synergic reaction that gave you more ponies than n + q.
Not gonna happen in the real world.
Why not?
Because these trucks have a decent exhaust system, stock.
They have a fair intake system, stock.
The stock cam is great for horsepower up above 5000, if you had enough fuel and exhaust scavenging.
The rest of the system ain't happy above 5000.....
This is true of many 'smog' cams. Lots of lift you can't use, because you don't turn that many RPMs.
Check the difference on lift from a smog cam and a moderate horsepower cam, not that much more lift. Look at the power band... Much higher than the emission motor is supposed to run.
Not talking about the duration, but it's not that bad either.
So rather than getting a huge boost by doing both ends, like you would on a motor designed to run at higher RPMs, you get very little increase by using both. Say 10-20 at shift from the exhaust, and 5-10 from the intake. Add them together, and you get anywhere from 12-25 max. Read their sites, note they like to quote maximums, but also notice that the maximum for each part is AT A DIFFERENT RPM....
Chris
sorry, couldn't help it.
You can prove both points. On paper you can show an engine that has a very bad exhaust will gain n horsepower from an improved exhaust.
If it has a very poor intake, you can show gain of q horsepower from a better intake.
If the test engine was seriously deficient on both ends, and had a over designed cam, and a plentiful fuel system, good heads, etc. you could add n and q and get a synergic reaction that gave you more ponies than n + q.
Not gonna happen in the real world.
Why not?
Because these trucks have a decent exhaust system, stock.
They have a fair intake system, stock.
The stock cam is great for horsepower up above 5000, if you had enough fuel and exhaust scavenging.
The rest of the system ain't happy above 5000.....
This is true of many 'smog' cams. Lots of lift you can't use, because you don't turn that many RPMs.
Check the difference on lift from a smog cam and a moderate horsepower cam, not that much more lift. Look at the power band... Much higher than the emission motor is supposed to run.
Not talking about the duration, but it's not that bad either.
So rather than getting a huge boost by doing both ends, like you would on a motor designed to run at higher RPMs, you get very little increase by using both. Say 10-20 at shift from the exhaust, and 5-10 from the intake. Add them together, and you get anywhere from 12-25 max. Read their sites, note they like to quote maximums, but also notice that the maximum for each part is AT A DIFFERENT RPM....
Chris
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From: somewhere east of west.
Originally posted by Quintin
Phew. I can't remember the last time I've had to think so hard on a weekend.
Phew. I can't remember the last time I've had to think so hard on a weekend.
I'll second that ...
one really cool thread ........... ( ya it is )
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From: Canada
The longer this thread lasts , the more my head is going to hurt.
What ever happend to posts with all the pictures. It so much easier to look at then to try and think. Kinda like "reading" the Playboy Magazines for the articles.
Later Trev
P.S. I think Rockpick should put a "Thinking Required Warning" message on this post.
What ever happend to posts with all the pictures. It so much easier to look at then to try and think. Kinda like "reading" the Playboy Magazines for the articles.
Later Trev
P.S. I think Rockpick should put a "Thinking Required Warning" message on this post.
Last edited by 1 KRAZY KANUCK; May 8, 2005 at 11:39 PM.
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From: ND
Originally posted by ChrisAdams
So rather than getting a huge boost by doing both ends, like you would on a motor designed to run at higher RPMs, you get very little increase by using both. Say 10-20 at shift from the exhaust, and 5-10 from the intake. Add them together, and you get anywhere from 12-25 max. Read their sites, note they like to quote maximums, but also notice that the maximum for each part is AT A DIFFERENT RPM....
Chris
So rather than getting a huge boost by doing both ends, like you would on a motor designed to run at higher RPMs, you get very little increase by using both. Say 10-20 at shift from the exhaust, and 5-10 from the intake. Add them together, and you get anywhere from 12-25 max. Read their sites, note they like to quote maximums, but also notice that the maximum for each part is AT A DIFFERENT RPM....
Chris
You lost me there in the middle of your reply, but for my own education, are you saying that any gains below 5k RPM's aren't really relavant simply because the engine's numbers aren't that great until above 5k?
Not only have I apparently confused everyone else reading this thread, I think I've fried some circuits myself too. Thanks for the help.
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From: riverside ca.
synergy.. not.
sorry to be the egghead here, but the term you want is gestalt ,or gestalten. briefly, the total is greater than the sum of its parts.again, sorry to be a nerdy *******, but just wanted to learn everyone a cool new word.
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From: ND
Re: synergy.. not.
Originally posted by danosaves
sorry to be the egghead here, but the term you want is gestalt ,or gestalten. briefly, the total is greater than the sum of its parts.again, sorry to be a nerdy *******, but just wanted to learn everyone a cool new word.
sorry to be the egghead here, but the term you want is gestalt ,or gestalten. briefly, the total is greater than the sum of its parts.again, sorry to be a nerdy *******, but just wanted to learn everyone a cool new word.
synergy: The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects.
gestalt: a configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that it cannot be described merely as a sum of its parts
I say tomato, you say ketchup. I was just trying to throw out my hypothesis. Or if you prefer...theory, belief or assumption.
