Dual remote oil filters????
#1
06-29-2001, 02:10 PM
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lawtey,FL.US
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dual remote oil filters????
#2
06-29-2001, 02:22 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Clarksville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One benifit would be if one of the filters was a by-pass type filter.
You could reduce wear over 60% over standard filtration.
Also would allow you to extend drain intervals considerably. Even if you don't use synthetics you can extend drain intervals 3-5 times what you are doing now.
With synthetics and by-pass filtration, 100,000+ oil drain intervals are not uncommon.
Another aspect would be you would have more capacity in your oil system, Since the oil's job is to cool(about 30%) the internals of your engine. Your truck would run cooler in the summer!
http://home.elp.rr.com/lubedirect/bypasspage.html
------------------
My Home Page
Lubrication Forums
[This message has been edited by msparks (edited 06-29-2001).]
You could reduce wear over 60% over standard filtration.
Also would allow you to extend drain intervals considerably. Even if you don't use synthetics you can extend drain intervals 3-5 times what you are doing now.
With synthetics and by-pass filtration, 100,000+ oil drain intervals are not uncommon.
Another aspect would be you would have more capacity in your oil system, Since the oil's job is to cool(about 30%) the internals of your engine. Your truck would run cooler in the summer!
http://home.elp.rr.com/lubedirect/bypasspage.html
------------------
My Home Page
Lubrication Forums
[This message has been edited by msparks (edited 06-29-2001).]
#3
06-29-2001, 02:23 PM
Can't think of any benefit other then just added capacity. Your oil won't be any "cleaner" after 3k miles then with just one..... Dunno really. Seen pics of racing cars with dual filters...... So who knows. One other thing, I'd think the additional "work" the pump would have to do to get the oil through a second filter would just wear it out faster....
#4
06-29-2001, 02:27 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Clarksville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is some more info.
http://amsoil.com/lit/g385.pdf
------------------
My Home Page
Lubrication Forums
http://amsoil.com/lit/g385.pdf
------------------
My Home Page
Lubrication Forums
#5
06-29-2001, 02:32 PM
Cool setup msparks. The benefits you listed are ones I didn't think of.
Could you explain the "by-pass" part a bit more?
I'm of the old school of motor oil and not used to the synthetic extended drain interval. I still use the "dino" oil and just change it every 3k. Knowing the oil removes the contaminates all internal combustion engines produce, I just can't bring myself to leave it in any longer. I start thinking of oil change when I get to the 2k mark, and when a free moment comes up, I'll hop on under and do it.
Could you explain the "by-pass" part a bit more?
I'm of the old school of motor oil and not used to the synthetic extended drain interval. I still use the "dino" oil and just change it every 3k. Knowing the oil removes the contaminates all internal combustion engines produce, I just can't bring myself to leave it in any longer. I start thinking of oil change when I get to the 2k mark, and when a free moment comes up, I'll hop on under and do it.
#6
06-29-2001, 02:52 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Clarksville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes I'll try to explain the by-pass part.
With a by-pass filter, what happens is a portion of your oil flow is siphoned off to the filter. The filter has a special media that is very dense. The oil is slowly(comparitvely) filtered. More contaminants are removed. Also smaller contaminants down to 1/10th of a micron can be removed by this system.
These by-pass systems have been on the market for 30 years or more. One of the most notable is the Franz filter, it uses a roll of toilet paper to achieve sub-micronic filtration.
Oh also with these systems besides dirt particles, fuel and water can also be removed. Which helps by being a less strain on your additve package.
Detroit diesel did a study which concluded that most wear is caused by particles in the 2-20 micron. I'll post some more on this in a sec when I find it.
The system in the photo is on a 2000 Ford F250 PSD. We put it on in Feb. He now has over 10,000 miles on the oil and it is still good. He has changed his full flow filter, but the by-pass is still doing its job.
One of the reasons to change filters is to help replenish the additves lost. Typically a quart of "good" oil will have enough additives to last until the next oil change. Because the oil stay's so clean, all you need to do is change filters and top off. This process can be done over and over. In essence never changing all of your oil at any one time!
------------------
My Home Page
Lubrication Forums
With a by-pass filter, what happens is a portion of your oil flow is siphoned off to the filter. The filter has a special media that is very dense. The oil is slowly(comparitvely) filtered. More contaminants are removed. Also smaller contaminants down to 1/10th of a micron can be removed by this system.
These by-pass systems have been on the market for 30 years or more. One of the most notable is the Franz filter, it uses a roll of toilet paper to achieve sub-micronic filtration.
Oh also with these systems besides dirt particles, fuel and water can also be removed. Which helps by being a less strain on your additve package.
Detroit diesel did a study which concluded that most wear is caused by particles in the 2-20 micron. I'll post some more on this in a sec when I find it.
The system in the photo is on a 2000 Ford F250 PSD. We put it on in Feb. He now has over 10,000 miles on the oil and it is still good. He has changed his full flow filter, but the by-pass is still doing its job.
One of the reasons to change filters is to help replenish the additves lost. Typically a quart of "good" oil will have enough additives to last until the next oil change. Because the oil stay's so clean, all you need to do is change filters and top off. This process can be done over and over. In essence never changing all of your oil at any one time!
------------------
My Home Page
Lubrication Forums
#7
06-29-2001, 02:55 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Clarksville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is that article that I was talking about:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">According to the (SAE) Society Of Automotive Engineers paper 881825, AC Spark Plug and Detroit Diesel Corp. performed a joint study of the relationship between the level of engine oil filtration and Engine wear rates, and found finer filtration reduced the rate of Engine wear.
Diesel and Gasoline Engine wear rates were established by building a Diesel and Gasoline Engine with fully inspected wear components and inspecting them after the test. In both Engines, the upper and lower main bearings, oil rings and compression rings were inspected. In the Diesel Engine, the cam lobe profile and cylinders were also inspected, while the piston pin bushings, piston pins and cylinder liners of the Gasoline engine were inspected.
The total test duration was eight hours. To accelerate wear, 50 grams of AC Fine Test Dust was added, in slurry form, to the crank case every hour.
Diesel Engine wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes: 40 Microns, 8.5 Microns and 7 Microns.
Gasoline Engines wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes of the following sizes: 40 Microns, 30 Microns and 15 Microns.
ANALYSIS
The researchers found clearances in the Diesel and Gasoline Engines varied between 2 and 22 Microns during engine operations. That means particles in the 2 to 22 Micron size range are most likely to damage Engine parts. Particles smaller than 2 Microns will slip through the clearances without damaging bearing surfaces.
CONLUSIONS
The researchers drew the following conclusions:
Abrasive Engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in single pass efficiency. Compared to a 40-Micron filter, Engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-Micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-Micron filtration.
Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2 to 22 Microns in the lube oil is necessary for controlling Engine wear, and "The Micron rating of a filter as established in a single pass efficiency type test, does an excellent job indicating the filter's ability to remove abrasive particles in the Engine lube oil system.
The smallest particles most popular "full Flow" filters capture with high efficiency are sized 25 to 40 Microns, depending on the filter brand.
</font>
Diesel and Gasoline Engine wear rates were established by building a Diesel and Gasoline Engine with fully inspected wear components and inspecting them after the test. In both Engines, the upper and lower main bearings, oil rings and compression rings were inspected. In the Diesel Engine, the cam lobe profile and cylinders were also inspected, while the piston pin bushings, piston pins and cylinder liners of the Gasoline engine were inspected.
The total test duration was eight hours. To accelerate wear, 50 grams of AC Fine Test Dust was added, in slurry form, to the crank case every hour.
Diesel Engine wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes: 40 Microns, 8.5 Microns and 7 Microns.
Gasoline Engines wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes of the following sizes: 40 Microns, 30 Microns and 15 Microns.
ANALYSIS
The researchers found clearances in the Diesel and Gasoline Engines varied between 2 and 22 Microns during engine operations. That means particles in the 2 to 22 Micron size range are most likely to damage Engine parts. Particles smaller than 2 Microns will slip through the clearances without damaging bearing surfaces.
CONLUSIONS
The researchers drew the following conclusions:
Abrasive Engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in single pass efficiency. Compared to a 40-Micron filter, Engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-Micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-Micron filtration.
Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2 to 22 Microns in the lube oil is necessary for controlling Engine wear, and "The Micron rating of a filter as established in a single pass efficiency type test, does an excellent job indicating the filter's ability to remove abrasive particles in the Engine lube oil system.
The smallest particles most popular "full Flow" filters capture with high efficiency are sized 25 to 40 Microns, depending on the filter brand.
</font>
Trending Topics
#8
06-29-2001, 03:04 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Clarksville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here are a few other companies that make by-pass filtration system. Though none have the convience of a spin on filter. Most have a messy drop in element that needs to be changed. Some of the elements dont have the same filtration effeciency either. Or the same capacity. All of this needs to be taken into account when choosing a filter.
http://www.bypassfilter.com/index.htm
http://www.filtrationsolutionsww.com/
http://www.oilguard.com/
http://www.puradyn.com/
My suggestion is to look over all of these companies and learn about by-pass filtration.
Of coarse my specialty is the Amsoil by-pass filter:
http://www.amsoil.com/products/bf.html
I have helped install a number of the Amsoil filters and am getting ready to put one on my F150. Just waiting for my bracket to come back from the Powdercoaters.
I also have some experiece with the oilguard unit. A few of my friends have put them on their VW TDI's with good success. Though I feel the unit is smaller than I would like.
Hope this helps.
------------------
My Home Page
Lubrication Forums
http://www.bypassfilter.com/index.htm
http://www.filtrationsolutionsww.com/
http://www.oilguard.com/
http://www.puradyn.com/
My suggestion is to look over all of these companies and learn about by-pass filtration.
Of coarse my specialty is the Amsoil by-pass filter:
http://www.amsoil.com/products/bf.html
I have helped install a number of the Amsoil filters and am getting ready to put one on my F150. Just waiting for my bracket to come back from the Powdercoaters.
I also have some experiece with the oilguard unit. A few of my friends have put them on their VW TDI's with good success. Though I feel the unit is smaller than I would like.
Hope this helps.
------------------
My Home Page
Lubrication Forums
#9
06-29-2001, 03:16 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sniper:
I used to run a dual bypass setup from Amsoil on my '94 Toyota 4x4 (I still have it in a box). I had a full-flow filter on there and a filter that would remove deposits that were larger than 1 micron. It added more than 2-1/2 quarts of oil to the system. This is where it gets tough though. Many suppliers of pre-lubers "claim" that 70~90% of engine wear occurs at startup. If this is true, then the benefits of super filtration are uncertain. msparks can correct me if I'm wrong, but Amsoil's intention has always been to extend the oil life in the engine. It's financially and environmentally the smart thing to do. The bypass filter setup can certainly help to extend oil life by removing particulate, but does it make a "significant" difference to engine wear ... maybe not.
The Amsoil bypass manifold has a valve (ball and spring) that when closed directs oil to the 1 micron filter. When the oil pressure gets to a certain value the valve opens and most if not all of the oil goes through the full flow filter. So most of the oil only goes through one filter at a time. If you think about it, the oil pressure at idle should increase over stock due to an increase in restriction i.e. 1 micron filter vs. full-flow filter. At the other end of the scale, the max oil pressure should drop due to the added friction of the oil hoses, manifold etc. It's my understanding that our vehicles have a pressure relief valve so that the oil pressure does not exceed 85~90 psi. If for arguments sake the pressure relief valve opens at 2200rpm in OD (85psi), then perhaps with the bypass kit the valve will open at 2400rpm in OD (85psi). So the pump has had to work for a little longer until it the oil reaches the relief pressure.
In my Toyota I noticed a slight drop in max oil pressure but also a drop in the oil pressure at idle. So much for theories! There are many variables such as where the oil pressure is measured etc.
------------------
'00 5.4L AUTO 4X4 F-150 Lariat
'98 4.0L 5spd Jeep Wrangler Sport
'02 F-350 PSD CC DRW 6SPD 4X4 Lariat (order this year)
www.hawthorn-engineering.com
[This message has been edited by gah (edited 06-29-2001).]
I used to run a dual bypass setup from Amsoil on my '94 Toyota 4x4 (I still have it in a box). I had a full-flow filter on there and a filter that would remove deposits that were larger than 1 micron. It added more than 2-1/2 quarts of oil to the system. This is where it gets tough though. Many suppliers of pre-lubers "claim" that 70~90% of engine wear occurs at startup. If this is true, then the benefits of super filtration are uncertain. msparks can correct me if I'm wrong, but Amsoil's intention has always been to extend the oil life in the engine. It's financially and environmentally the smart thing to do. The bypass filter setup can certainly help to extend oil life by removing particulate, but does it make a "significant" difference to engine wear ... maybe not.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">One other thing, I'd think the additional "work" the pump would have to do to get the oil through a second filter would just wear it out faster....</font>
In my Toyota I noticed a slight drop in max oil pressure but also a drop in the oil pressure at idle. So much for theories! There are many variables such as where the oil pressure is measured etc.
------------------
'00 5.4L AUTO 4X4 F-150 Lariat
'98 4.0L 5spd Jeep Wrangler Sport
'02 F-350 PSD CC DRW 6SPD 4X4 Lariat (order this year)
www.hawthorn-engineering.com
[This message has been edited by gah (edited 06-29-2001).]
#10
06-29-2001, 03:17 PM
Thanks msparks-
I'm starting to see the light. Makes sense on changing the filter and topping off. So those AMSOIL filters have some sort of additional "additive" in them? Is that the secret to the extended drain interval?
A buddy of mine had a car that used so much oil, he had to add a quart every five days or so. Never did a full oil change because of how fast he kept having to replace it. He did change the filter every now and then....
I'm starting to see the light. Makes sense on changing the filter and topping off. So those AMSOIL filters have some sort of additional "additive" in them? Is that the secret to the extended drain interval?
A buddy of mine had a car that used so much oil, he had to add a quart every five days or so. Never did a full oil change because of how fast he kept having to replace it. He did change the filter every now and then....
#11
06-29-2001, 03:37 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If we believe all the pre-luber manufacturers, and we go with the lower number that 70% of engine wear occurs at startup then it follows that 30% of engine wear is caused by something else. From the link posted by msparks, 60% of engine wear is caused by particles in the 5~20 micron range. It's logical to assume then that the wear referred to by Amsoil is 60% of the remaining 30%. So maybe 20% of total engine wear is caused by particulate, 70% by startup, and 10% by other means.
msparks:
Does Amsoil make a pre-luber system? When I finally get my F-350 I will DEFINITELY be installing a dual bypass kit (probably Amsoil's latest model). The 7.3L holds close to 15 quarts of oil. That's a lot of money if you change oil at 3000 miles as recommended by Ford and the members at Ford-diesel.com. Good filtration is a must. I'd think that a pre-luber WITH a bypass kit would provide outstanding protection.
------------------
'00 5.4L AUTO 4X4 F-150 Lariat
'98 4.0L 5spd Jeep Wrangler Sport
'02 F-350 PSD CC DRW 6SPD 4X4 Lariat (order this year)
www.hawthorn-engineering.com
msparks:
Does Amsoil make a pre-luber system? When I finally get my F-350 I will DEFINITELY be installing a dual bypass kit (probably Amsoil's latest model). The 7.3L holds close to 15 quarts of oil. That's a lot of money if you change oil at 3000 miles as recommended by Ford and the members at Ford-diesel.com. Good filtration is a must. I'd think that a pre-luber WITH a bypass kit would provide outstanding protection.
------------------
'00 5.4L AUTO 4X4 F-150 Lariat
'98 4.0L 5spd Jeep Wrangler Sport
'02 F-350 PSD CC DRW 6SPD 4X4 Lariat (order this year)
www.hawthorn-engineering.com
#12
06-29-2001, 03:40 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Clarksville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gah:
Many suppliers of pre-lubers "claim" that 70~90% of engine wear occurs at startup. If this is true, then the benefits of super filtration are uncertain. msparks can correct me if I'm wrong, but Amsoil's intention has always been to extend the oil life in the engine. It's financially and environmentally the smart thing to do
</font>
Many suppliers of pre-lubers "claim" that 70~90% of engine wear occurs at startup. If this is true, then the benefits of super filtration are uncertain. msparks can correct me if I'm wrong, but Amsoil's intention has always been to extend the oil life in the engine. It's financially and environmentally the smart thing to do
</font>
I don't necessarily believe the wear at start-up. There is a film on all of the internal parts that protects your engine until your oil pressure comes up. Unless you let your engine set for long periods where the film would actually dry off. You should have good start-up protection. This is called boundry lubrication. Once your engine is flowing oil we have hydrodynamic lubrication
Click here to learn about lubrication theory and practice:
http://www.lubrizol.com/LubeTheory/theory.htm
Now in extreme cold temps(less than 10 degrees F.) Your start-up protection would be more critical. Because the oil is thick and takes longer to circulate. (Another reason to use synthetics) but anyhow the main reason for the filtration system is to reduce wear period!
Amsoil already has 25,000 and 35,000 mile drain intervals without the use of by-pass filtration. I believe the extended drains used by the filtration system help with the economics. Look at it this way. If you put the system on and still had to change the oil every 25,000 you would not be able to save any money. You even a higher expensive of changing an extra filter.
But by extending out to extreme intervals you are getting the benifits of reduced engine wear and longer drain intervals.
------------------
My Home Page
Lubrication Forums
[This message has been edited by msparks (edited 06-29-2001).]
#13
06-29-2001, 03:55 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Clarksville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In regards to the Toilet paper filter. The recommended filter change interval is 3000 miles. It would not work well with synthetics. Yes the element is cheaper(what does a roll of TP cost? $.50) But you are adding a quart every 3,000 even at $4.45 a quart Amsoil 5w30 dealer cost you would be spending a lot of money to justify the filter.
