bbraynor posted 07-21-98 07:01 PM ET (US)
HELP! The 5.4L may have a design flaw? If you have experienced a "cold start knock", or more simply a knocking sound when starting a cold 5.4, please let me know! Others have had this problem which sounds "unfixable". Any info would be of great help. The 99 5.4 I've been informed should have been fixed. I bleed FMC Blue, but my experience with problems makes me shudder thinking of going another round with these guys. If ANYONE has had the problem and had resolution, your help would be appreciated. If you have the problem, you will know what sound I'm relating. Sounds like you just changed the oil and forgot to fill the filter. Lasts for a few seconds. From what I've been told seems like a BIG PROBLEM! Thanks for your help.

jlukas posted 07-29-98 11:48 AM ET (US)
I have noticed the same problem, on my 5.4L it sounds like a lifter tick and clears after a few seconds. I was wondering if it might be gas with too low octane levels.

gnjones231 posted 07-29-98 06:33 PM ET (US)
I have the same problem on my '98 with only 400 miles on it. It does sound like a lifter ticking, but I'm not so sure about that. If I put the auto tranny in gear, the ticking noise instantly disappears. I haven't had a good chance to investigate this fruther, but from what I can determine it seems to be coming from the tranny area. I'm not really concerned about the noise just yet either.

Indyfan posted 07-30-98 02:03 PM ET (US)
This may be a clue. A friend of mine with a 5.4L in a full size van had a noise at start up, like a pinging sound. After a few trips to the dealer (and a few "We couldn't find anything wrong"s) they found a defective oxygen sensor and that cured it

. Oregon posted 07-30-98 09:03 PM ET (US)
My F-150 5.4L is just over a week old and has the same little knock when cold.I'll have to pay closer attention to any changes when it's warm. I was about to complain to my dealer.....

bbraynor posted 07-30-98 11:26 PM ET (US)
I left my truck at the dealer this evening so I'll let you know. Thanks for the feedback, now I know I'm not crazy. I've gotten some feedback, but so far it's not good if you own a modular V-8 from the Windsor factory(5.4L) like me built before the 1999 model year. I've been told the sound we are all hearing is a piston and ring design flaw in the stroked 5.4L. The short skirt of the engine causes the piston to rock or slap when cold. When the rings heat up and expand that sound we hear goes away. To me this sounds like a problem that will appear after 3/36. I know of 2 others who are in negotiation with Ford for buy backs of their trucks. They say the problem gets worse. One is in lemon law "limbo". O2 sensor, I don't know? I had a buddy with a 5.4 Exped with bad O2 and had very different symptoms. My truck has 10K on it, I live in hot Florida and that tap/knock/slap sound continues. If anyone knows someone at Ford, any MORE info will be appreciated. Oh yea, I've also been told Ford knows about the problem.

Oregon posted 07-31-98 12:56 PM ET (US)
I just ran my truck home at lunch. The ticking noise appeared after it was warm ?!?!
The engine temp guage was right where it should be and the noise was there. I'm keen to hear what your FORD dealer has to say about it. Thanks for bringing it up.

bbraynor posted 07-31-98 08:19 PM ET (US)
Hello, Not much good news. About what I expected. Got a call a 8:30 AM,"Mr. Raynor what oil do you use and how often do you change it?" "Texaco or Mobil and every 3,000 miles", I answered (the truck only has 10,000 on it). "Ok we're going to put an engine additive in it from Ford, if it continues, let us change the oil at the next sch. oil change." I replied to JOHN," Did you hear it?". "Yes." Picked up the truck and the service manager asked what was wrong. I told him. He asked,"What filters do you use?". "FRAM OR PUROLATOR 1 ($6.00)". As soon as he heard that,"That's the problem, you must use a Motocraft filter, I had a similar complaint from a customer and that was it". I started your truck and it was fine." My fellow Ford friends, 2 hours after the additive,I started the truck and it knocked. This is bad. I bleed Ford blue and would never buy GM, but I'm telling you this smells. What is bad is that others have told me the dealers blame the oil, filter, or the weather. Ask yourself, "If a check valve is the problem and only a MOTORCRAFT filter works, why are the others certified by ASE?". The filter is near the pan, how can a gasket or check valve keep oil up top? Please! If you own a 5.4L wit h this condition let me know. If you are on this site, you know trucks and must admit this smells. Even if you doubt me, let me know. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!

Oregon posted 07-31-98 08:49 PM ET (US)
Sounds like a problem that someone is not willing to admit to. I'll be talking to my dealer on Monday. Damerow Ford in Portland Oregon is one of the TOP truck sellers in the States. They just might know something about this. I'll get back to you.

bbraynor posted 07-31-98 10:10 PM ET (US)
Oregon, Thanks for the concern. I'm not trashing FORD by any means, but I do not want to be left holding the bag at 50,000k when rings or pistons go. I have strangely been told of 2 FORD tactics reg. this problem. One was to blame Quaker State Oil, the other the filter. My family has been in parts for >40 yrs.. Fram and Purolator are ASE certified to EXCEED OEM SPECS! It is concerning when 2 people tell you with the same problem "look out because they'll tell you this" and it becaomes a reality. It is not oil, filters, or the boogey man! There is something WRONG IN MY TRUCK WITH THE HEADS,PISTONS, LIFTERS, OR RINGS. Forgive me because I think it has lifters for an OHC, but am not sure. HELL, IF I HAVE TO LEMON LAW THE TRUCK I'D STILL BUY ANOTHER FMC......BUT ONE THAT DOESN'T COLD START KNOCK!!!!!!! KEEP THE INFO COMMING PLEASE. PROVE ME WRONG!!!!

ARWhite posted 08-04-98 11:34 AM ET (US)
Just another data point; I've got a 1998 5.4 with 5300 miles on it and I haven't heard a cold start knock at all. Not sure which engine plant mine came from though. How do I determine in which plant the engine was built?

bbraynor posted 08-05-98 04:49 PM ET (US)
ARWhite, all 5.4's and some 4.6's are produced at the Windsor factory.

KFincher posted 08-05-98 10:24 PM ET (US)
What was your source about the engine being "fixed" for 1999? Is it pretty reliable? I am ordering a 1999 F150 with the 5.4L engine and now I'm a little concerned. I hope all goes well with yours... If you think talking to the service dept. is bad, you ought to try being a woman! I can't imagine trying to explain that one to the mechanics. They'd look at me like I was crazy! Although, one time I did catch a mechanic who didn't bolt my distributor down--he tried to argue until I pointed it out and wobbled the distributor around! --no apology for the dirty looks, though! :-)

M Faulkner posted 08-06-98 09:07 AM ET (US)
I have A 98 5.4 with 5300 miles. I have noticed a cold start knock after engine sits for 4 to 5 days. Daily start-ups are ok. Before this truck I had a 95 Mark VIII with DOHC 4.6 that had this condition at every start-up. This could be a modular engine problem.

darrinc posted 08-06-98 10:21 AM ET (US)
Just a note for people buying a 99 F-150 with
the 5.4L engine. In 1998 the 5.4L engine was
used with the E040D transmission and the
4.6L engine was used with the 4R70W transmission. In 1999, both the 5.4L and 4.6L
engines will use the 4R70W transmission. The
E040D was the heavy duty tranny needed for
the higher torque 5.4L engine. Now in 1999,
the 5.4L engine is using the 4R70W tranny
and the torque has been increased on the
5.4L engine. I don't know about anybody else
but I am very leary about getting the 5.4L
engine on my 1999 F-150 with the lighter
duty tranny. It would be nice to know exactly why ford changed to the smaller tranny and at the same time increased the torque on the 5.4L.

bbraynor posted 08-06-98 07:19 PM ET (US)
Yes, I hate to admit it, but I can see if you were a lady having a real tough time with these "gentlemen". I empathize. I feel my source is reliable for the 99 5.4 info. I even have the name of a contact person who readily admitted to the problem at the Windsor plant. Got some bad news today in the mail with a bad 5.4 FORD was unwilling to buy back. The dealer and NOT the driver found the problem....he doubts with the new publicity that FMC will offer any more buy backs. I won't stop. That is not acceptable. If you have a 5.4 with cold start noise, bring it in! This increased publicity may hurt my case in the short term, but if you have a problem and keep me informed, I'll share everything I've got. I have to go back in with the truck soon. The FORD BREAKIN ADDITIVE isn't working. Gee, I'm so suprised a pour-in can't fix an engineering problem. Maybe I should call Motor-up/Dura-lube/or Prolong. Heck maybe I'll get free wax with it for life if they work. I did not know they switched the E40D! That's not great. Great info though, our tranny is E40D and super. 99's better watch the tow weight. Great point.

pmeanea posted 08-08-98 12:10 PM ET (US)
Reference the 5.4 piston slap problem.
For what it may be worth--several postings on the ford truck enthusiasts site have indicated that Ford has replaced some of these engines with new engines.
That site address is www.ford-trucks.com
Hope that may help you.
OVERALL, I love my 97 F-150 ext cab 4X4 short bed with all the goodies including 5.4 engine. Have had couple of minor problems but nothing that even comes close to making me mad at Ford. I think Ford is making a SHARP !!! F-150 now.

KFincher posted 08-09-98 08:18 PM ET (US)
Concerned about the '99 5.4 L with the "wimpy" tranny? Read Tim A's post under "Engines". Its right below "bbraynors".

Oregon posted 08-21-98 04:13 PM ET (US)
I finally got my rig into Damerow Ford in Beaverton, Oregon. The noise is...and I quote "that is a normal noise....and engine noise" "The injectors make that noise, some louder than others, and it sometimes resonates through the exhaust system"
So...I'll see if the noise gets worse or better. At least I have documentation that I complained at 2,500 miles.
Sorry .... there doesn't seem to be a magic bullet for your noise problem.
I couldn't find anything at Ford-Trucks.com on anyone replacing engines..... Any hints as to where exactly it may be ???
Thanks

bbraynor posted 08-23-98 05:56 PM ET (US)
Yes, the best expl. I've heard is in my 7/30/98 post. Injector noise? Why does it go away then? I don't think so. Good thing you documented early. Like most who think that a totaled car gets them a free new car or "out" of theirs, I will probably have mine attempted to be repaired 3 times then use the lemon law. This costs $2-5K from those I've talked to. I do not have, nor did expect to need money to buy another new vehicle after buying the latest and greatest new FMC. Sorry, guess I am bitter, but MAN! Fram and Purolator want the name of the dealership and service manager who blamed their products. Their is some big-time law I had never heard of that prevents companies like FMC from "voiding" warr. using aftermarket products. I'm planning my next move, but haven't received much internet support so far from other owners other than you kind folks who have tried. Thanks. I'll keep trying.

ARWhite posted 08-24-98 06:28 PM ET (US)
I've got a question about this 5.4L cold start knock; is the knocking an obvious, in-your-face unmistakable sound or is it really subtle? If I have it would I know it right off? As I posted earlier I have never heard a cold start knock on my '98 5.4L. Just wondering if I'm listening for the right sound or not.

Dsiedelmann posted 08-26-98 07:41 AM ET (US)
I've been following the knock conversations. I have a '97 4.6L which had the same cold start up knock. I use synthetic oil and used Mobil 1 filters. After the comment about oil filters, I began to wonder if they had an affect. On my last change I used a new Motocraft filter that has a silicon feature. I believe the filter number is ?-420-SL. So far the knock is either gone or drastically reduced. I believe the feature in the filter is supposed to minimize leak back. I have not had a problem with my '92 Mercury 4.6L, so there must be something in the truck version of the engine.

DG posted 08-29-98 04:41 AM ET (US)
I have a 4.6 and use the flow back filter motorcraft makes. The quick knock on cold start sounds a heck of a lot like rod bearings. Piston slap is only heard while the motor is running. I get leary at the sound when I start in the morning but it doesn't do it again unless it sits, so far 33,500 miles and haven't spun a bearing yet. I hope.

lexus1 posted 08-29-98 11:30 AM ET (US)
I have a 97 4.6L that has the same problem it has went away for the time being but i'm sure it will return. I was just wondering if anyone has watched the exhaust when the knocking was happening. Mine when it does do it there is either black or blue smoke while the actual knocking is happening. Hasn't happened now for about 5000 miles the change i made was the motorcraft filer with the silicone valve and went to 10w-40 motorcraft oil.

DG posted 08-29-98 07:15 PM ET (US)
Yeah I've noticed a small black puff every once in a while. The smoke just looks like it starts the motor rich thats probably were the black smoke is from. I just hope at 50K I won't be pulling the motor to rebuild the bottom end. But it runs great at 34k so we'll see what happens. I run the Motorcraft filters too. As for the blue smoke I'll keep an eye out and see if it happens. The blue smoke might be the valve guides I've seen it happen with a fresh rebuild and it goes away once the vavle guides settle in.

Wink posted 08-30-98 10:24 AM ET (US)
Yes I have a 5.4L and I have heard the knocking sound, it last only a few seconds .
my truck is one month old .It had the original oil and filter in it .when I first heard it .
I changed Oil and filter at 2,500 mile I used Castral 5w30 and MoterCraft filter with the silicone valve,and it still knocks.
To me it sounds like a dry moter needing OIL.
let me know if you find out annything.thank's

prcosens posted 09-01-98 06:34 AM ET (US
An interesting twist to this thread. I have a 98 4.6l V8 38,000 Km (24000 Miles)and have this knocking problem big time. The local service manager originally played down the problem, but has since been in contact with the engine plant and . . .
They are talking a new engine for me before the end of the year! They are still unsure of the cause of the knock, but hope to have a cure soon.
I will believe it when it's in, running and silent!!! I will keep you posted.

bbraynor posted 09-01-98 05:31 PM ET (US)
Wink is right on! That's what it sounds like! I know I'm not crazy. Another guy has posted at another site of Expedition 5.4L knock. Keep the info comming. See, if it is one 5.4, it is probably all to some degree. The 4.6L built by the Windsor plant are subject to the same problem. I am formulating my Lemon Law Buy-Back strategy. That is the only satisfactory conclusion I've found based on reports from others with the problem. FMC wants to replace your faulty motor you bought new with a rebuilt. Hey, I bought new and it is not my fault FMC decided to experiment on the 5.4L with me. Sorry, got carried away.

newhamp posted 09-02-98 07:43 AM ET (US)
I have had my 5.4L '98 for 13 days, 700+ miles (original filter and oil), and I heard the knock for the time three days ago after a cold start (sitting in a garage over night). I stumbled on this web site and was feeling fairly fortunate reading about the problem in that I hadn't seen this issue initially. My vehicle was built in Ontario, Canada - engines, I am sure, are all made in the same plant. I wanted to lend my support to a corrective action. Please post all dealer, Ford direct steps to correct the problem.

bbraynor posted 09-02-98 06:56 PM ET (US)
Sorry to hear your problem, but join the club. DOCUMENT THE PROBLEM IMMEDIATELY WITH YOUR DEALER. DO NOT wait. I finally checked in at 10,000 and WILL PAY $ for it!!!
As far as answers, that's why I keep posting. I have none yet. The more people know and HELP each other, the better chance we all have. So far I'm following the dealer. I'm to have them change my oil at 11,000 to see if their oil and filter work magic. As far as the posts stating the Motorcraft filters solve the problem, that is bunk! I have documentation from Purolator and Fram stating that this is 100% false. These are 2 very respected filter companies. I'll let you know what happens in the comming months. As it gets colder, just watch, I KNOW we'll have more action on this post. Hang in there and let's work together. It is the best chance we ALL have. Wink heard that same noise I did. That is encouraging. My wife even hears it now.

bbraynor posted 09-02-98 06:58 PM ET (US)
sorry, I forgot, ALL 5.4L are from the Windsor plant. Thus the 4.6L problem from this plant as well, not with the ROMEO 4.6's.

darrinc posted 09-03-98 08:54 AM ET (US
How can you tell if your 4.6L engine was
manufactured at the ROMEO or at the Windsor
plants. I got my truck in Dallas

lexus1 posted 09-03-98 01:21 PM ET (US)
look at you vin number counting from the left, the engine code letter designation is the 8th digit. W is made at Romeo and 6 is made at Windsor both of mine were made at windsor and have no knock problems.

bbraynor posted 09-03-98 05:26 PM ET (US)
No knocks...great! Mine does, no doubt! Anyone with any info or 5.4L problems would sure be appreciated! Have any of you ever spent money on a NEW vehicle, not to mention $25,000, and have the vehicle make an abnormal sound that even your mother asks, " what is that noise?". I had not until we purchased the truck we had dreamed would carry our babies around safely in a 4,500lb. behemouth for maybe 8 to 10 years. Heck, it is a TRUCK and it will last, right...it is "Built Ford Tough"? Well sorry to burst your bubble, FORD DROPPED THE BALL WITH THE 5.4L ENGINE!!!!!! When they stroked it, they forgot something. Oh, the 99 has more HP and torque and no knock, what a coincidence!!! Seems like a redesign to me. I'm a pretty good pain in the butt, so I'll fight Ford myself if I have to, but it sure would be nice if the 5.4L brethren would help everyone out on this matter. If everyone is in denial, I personally think you'll smoke the engine before "the first regularly schd. tune-up at 100,000 mile". Isn't that cool? The way mine sounds, it won't make it. I have never heard a engine do this. When I was penniless, I owned a 1978 Chevette (forgive me, but give me credit for admitting it). We welded sheet metal to the floorpan so we wouldn't "Fred Flinstone" in the thing! It sounded better on start-up. Not even a diesel Rabbit I had made this start-up noise. I know something is wrong with our truck. If you have ANY 5.4L PROBLEMS PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I'll keep posting my experience.

prcosens posted 09-04-98 06:49 AM ET (US)
Back to the dealer again! There was a similar problem with early 97 4.6L engines apparently - fix was a "replacement engine" - does anyone have knowledge/info on this? Bbraynor, you have me concerned about rebuilt vs new replacement. Has anyone had an engine replacement yet? How will we ever identify a rebuild? Canadian dealer says that engine plant still does NOT have a fix, and will wait to replace engine until fix is a sure thing.

ARWhite posted 09-04-98 01:01 PM ET (US)
Does anybody know what the design flaw supposedly is in the 5.4L? Is it something like a cylinder bore tolerance issue where the problem would show up on some but not all the engines or is it functional design flaw that would show up on every engine given time?

b-wire posted 09-09-98 10:21 PM ET (US)
bbraynor, I have a 98 with a 5.4L, and have the same issue as the rest of you. I have it at the dealer now for this problem. I have used the MC filter sinse day 1 and still have had this problem. The 2 times I have had it in, the dealer has been unable to detect this noise. How convenient. I will post any witty responses from the dealer as they come in. I hope ther is a fix because lemmon-law in Texas is a royal pain, and you end up paying for miles before and after reporting. This adds up to big $$. Good Luck

ARWhite posted 09-10-98 09:07 AM ET (US)
Well, I've been listening for the cold start knock on my '98 5.4L for over a month now and still haven't heard anything strange. I just crossed over 8K miles on the odometer. I have changed the oil in my truck twice. The first at 2500 miles I did myself. The second at 5500 I let the dealer do it. I've been trying to remember what the thing sounded like on startup after an oil change since that's the way the cold start knock has been described. Well, this past weekend I changed the oil in my wife's Explorer and I paid particular attention to what it sounded like on the dry start after the oil change. I can tell you all unequivocally that my 1998 5.4L F150 has NEVER made that kind of noise on a regular cold start. For those of you who do hear that on a cold start I can certainly understand your concern!

bbraynor posted 09-10-98 06:26 PM ET (US)
B-wire,
You are not alone. Leave the truck overnight with specific instructions to pop the hood, start the truck, and listen near the front wheel well or near the fan. You should get a response. I've been contemplating playing my hand vs Ford, but I'm not shure if I should wait first. I have THE NAME of the engineer at Windsor who admits and knows all about the problem and multiple E-mail documents supporting this as real. Please give me some advice. Wait and see if they find something while miles pile up, or let them have it right now and risk a rebuilt 97 5.4 as my only choice? Thoughts? Oh yea B-wire, be prepared for "it is normal injector noise, what noise?, you must use the 820-S filter only, Quaker State oil won't work" and so on. If someone mentions a particular aftermarket part as no good, as for their name, report it and document it with the service manager and call that particular company yourself and tell them what happened. This "dissing" aftermarket parts is a slamming tactic and ILLEGAL. This will really get things going. If you haven't noticed, I refuse to lose on this rip-off! My and many other 5.4L Fords have a "Plymouth Volare'" like flaw. They decided to use our trucks for the proving ground! Disgraceful, and then to give us denials and hassle. Hey, if the Slickmeister gets fired he could be FMC President.?

Steve Mackin posted 09-11-98 11:04 AM ET (US)
If anyone is going to the dealer to fight them on this issue, do yourself a favor and printout all of these postings. Every argument all these dealers have given are disputed in these postings. Let the dealer argue with the owners postings!!!

bbraynor posted 09-11-98 06:33 PM ET (US)
All Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! COMPUTERS RULE!!!!!!!!!!! A nice fellow from "the great white north" just E-mailed me a recording from his truck and IT SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE MY 5.4 IN FLORIDA!!!!!!!! FORD is either going to FIX our trucks ......or ......if we can stick together........... can you say CLASS ACTION? KEEP THE INFO COMMING!!!! This made my week! Thank you Don in Canada!!! I'm E-mailing my friend now to see if we can send to anyone interested in our SOUND! Come On! We CAN get our trucks fixed.......this IS REAL!!!!!!!!! Thsi digital recording is on my Zip drive ready to go. I'm telling you....it is the sound dead on! KEEP THE INFO COMMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!

b-wire posted 09-14-98 08:26 PM ET (US
I just got my truck back from the dealer and it sounds a lot better. I have not heard that terrible "cold engine knock" in four days. They replaced an item called an "octane plug", and they tuned the engine with that plug removed. I assume this is a sensor that detects the type of octane fuel being used. I am awaiting a better explaination from the service writer than I found on the receipts. These repairs were done to fix knocking while acccelerating. I will post all findings as they come in.

ARWhite posted 09-15-98 08:54 AM ET (US)
I've heard tell that the 5.4L at least has a spark knock sensor. Supposedly, when spark knock is detected the ignition computer retards the spark timing to dissuade the spark knock. So, in effect, there is an octane sensor, but in an in-direct sort of way (since higher octane gasoline would result in less knock given the same spark timing that produces the knock with a lower octane gasoline). What I don't know is does the computer advance the timing until spark knock is detected and then retards it until it is not thus giving you optimum timing for the octane you are running? Beats me...

cobra96 posted 09-23-98 12:22 PM ET (US)
This whole issue is one reason why I am waiting for the Toyota Tundra 4.7 (245 HP @ 315 ft lbs). Can't deny Toyota quality!.... and it looks like the Tundra will be a true full size truck. Still might buy the Ford, just want to see the competition. P.S. Sold my 96 cobra & my 95 GT - Ford needs to slow down & do things right, maybe your slow to the market, but it will be a quality product when it gets there. Good luck bbraynor ....your gonna need it with the blue oval.

chipDIRECT posted 09-30-98 01:08 PM ET (US)
this is not my company and I am not tryingto spam you, this may be the product,because it has cured my truck!(an engine preluber)takes oil out at the pan drain plug into a pump
and pressurizes-watch your oil pressure gauge
-oil into tee fitting at the oil filter,while you have your key in the on position and the engine off as the oil pressure comes up turn the starter and your
engine will start quiet. "ENGINEGAURD"
1800-836-8601 call them and they will send literature. These were originally designed for boats!
994x4f150 posted 09-30-98 03:59 PM ET (US
Whatever cobra96....do you want to jump up and click your heels in a Toyota commercial when your Tundra gets to 150,000 miles. Ford has a proven track record in full size trucks.....Go buy your Tundra and do some 4x4ing in Japan---oh almost forgot....off roading is illegal there....

bbraynor posted 10-05-98 08:03 PM ET (US)
Back to dealer. Oil changed and left overnight. All service personel in lot hear knock at start up following AM. I had to call dealer to see what status was. Service Mgr. calls and tells me to pick up truck. They received word from Ford that they will 'get back to me' with what they will do. Do they havve a fix? Service Mgr. says wait and see what they say. I give him all my Internet info. Yes FORD knows this as 'PISTON SLAP'. Says not a problem. Happens all the time he says and never a problem. I am waiting.
Today called Florida State Atty. General Office and ask them their advice. They say they are familiar with 'wait' approach. Their best advice, do not wait. Take to another dealer for 3rd attempted fix. Document and begin LEMON LAW PROCEEDINGS! NOW! But they told me to wait and I feel kind of sneaky, I ask. Do you want this settled or do you want to get the shaft? OK. But, the truck runs...will they get nasty? Sometimes... get the third attempt! OK, off I go!! HOW ABOUT THAT, ONE OF FORDS GREATEST FANS GOT A STINKING LEMON!!!!!!!! THE NEW F-150 AND THE $800 UPGRADE 5.4 IS A LOUSEY LEMON. PISTON SLAP 5.4 OWNERS.......THAT IS WHAT FMC CALLS IT.......IF YOUR 5.4 MAKES START UP NOISE IT IS SCRAP METAL AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, unless it is a 99. Amazing that the increase in HP and TORQUE happened after I spend $24K on their experiment. Even if I trade for a brand new truck even up I'm still out of money. QUALITY IS JOB ONE!!!!
Y E A H R I G H T !!!!!

haunruh posted 10-05-98 10:56 PM ET (US)
I've had my 5.4L since April '97, and have heard this 'knock' almost since day one. It's not getting any worse or better. I use the FMC FL-820 filter and either Pennzoil or Quaker State 5W30; made no difference going from a Fram to the FMC.
I suspect the sound is piston slap as I've had that before in another vehicle, and it sounded pretty well the same. I doubt a different engine would be any different unless you got the 1999 model which has been considerably redesigned, and likely to correct this problem.
Hope you guys come up with something good. I'm also conxcerned with what happens after 36k miles (or 60k Km up here in Can.).

chipDIRECT posted 10-06-98 12:07 AM ET (US)
use an aftermarket preluber like used for boats! they work well, quiet start.
They should come stock on every vehicle
but then everyones engine would last
200,000 to 300,000 miles

FrankP posted 10-06-98 03:35 PM ET (US
Hey, I want in on this class action suit. I have a new F-250LD 4x4SC 5.4L/E4OD w/8500miles. Have heard this knock at different times. Only for a half second or so. Haven't heard it for a while though. Does it 'eventually work in"? I have asked dealer to listen for it. Hope it can be duplicated in their presence.

FrankP posted 10-07-98 01:20 PM ET (US)
OK, so I heard this sound this morning. Have to go the dealer to have my rear diff explored/surgery'd for moan/groan/clunk on accel and decel (lash back in gears?). Also has a leaky pinion seal. So I'll have them "register" this complaint of my 5.4L too. I wonder if Ford will be so forth coming as Toyota is. Toyota's V6 engines have been blowing head gaskets for years and they "quietly" fix them every time - no matter where you are in the warranty or miles on vechile. Apparently they have HONOR! (Their probably just scared to death of Harry's Carry.) My service writer, says Ford knows all about it and has not come up with a solution as yet - most likely, short block rebuild or ....turnkey new motor drop in! We'll see.

prcosens posted 10-08-98 04:00 PM ET (US)
Update on Windsor plant 8 cyl Triton 4.6/5.4 engine knock:
Dealer has indicated to me that the problem has been "oficially identified" by the Windsor engine plant. Get this - "piston geometry" and "aggressive spark" combine to create the knock. They say all engines disassembled to date show NO SIGNS of abnormal wear.
Sounds to me like the prelude to blowing off all of us with a "software fix" ie: spark adjustment.
NO WAY this is right. My problem (now at 45,000 Km ) is getting worse, much worse!!
Be happy you are in the USA - we apparently DO NOT have a Lemon Law to deal with this scam.
Hot and getting Hotter!!

bbraynor posted 10-18-98 07:19 AM ET (US)
I was right all along. Another dealer replaced my lifters (4 day process and lost a wheel cover?). Guess what? It still knocks. How about that? I have word a New, now I haven't found out what new is (like Clinton says,'there are many different definitions of NEW') engine replacement. I have been worn out by Fords tactics and uneducated service depts. Sorry guys, in West Central Florida the 2 dealerships I've been to have been TERRIBLE! That is being kind. Also, this is a real 5.4 PROBLEM. It is known and recognized by Ford as 'piston slap'. There is NO repair! Engine replacement only. I WAS RIGHT. My # is 352-726-3668 if anyone wants to talk to me. Also, the rude E-mail telling me to 'keep quiet this is minor, mine doesn't do it' and 'Ford is the greatest' can stop now as this is documented now and recognized as a signifigant problem. I'll post info as I get it. Thanks for those who have helped and given support. We aren't done yet.

bbraynor posted 10-18-98 07:19 AM ET (US)
I was right all along. Another dealer replaced my lifters (4 day process and lost a wheel cover?). Guess what? It still knocks. How about that? I have word a New, now I haven't found out what new is (like Clinton says,'there are many different definitions of NEW') engine replacement. I have been worn out by Fords tactics and uneducated service depts. Sorry guys, in West Central Florida the 2 dealerships I've been to have been TERRIBLE! That is being kind. Also, this is a real 5.4 PROBLEM. It is known and recognized by Ford as 'piston slap'. There is NO repair! Engine replacement only. I WAS RIGHT. My # is 352-726-3668 if anyone wants to talk to me. Also, the rude E-mail telling me to 'keep quiet this is minor, mine doesn't do it' and 'Ford is the greatest' can stop now as this is documented now and recognized as a signifigant problem. I'll post info as I get it. Thanks for those who have helped and given support. We aren't done yet.

prcosens posted 10-22-98 02:39 PM ET (US)
Canadian Update:
My 4.6L Windsor engine just took a big dive.
47,500 Km's.
Vibration, loss of power, general SICK sounds.
Knock on start, knock at idle when warm, MAJOR Pinging under even light loads.
STILL NO HELP FROM FORD
Listen, DOCUMENT any noises with Ford immediately, do not let this problem go unnoticed!!
Ford rep indicates STILL NO SOLUTION available at this time!
So much for the quick fix - oh, by the way, no lemon law in Canada! (Please correct me if I am wrong)
Help!!

Hawkpilot posted 10-24-98 12:00 AM ET (US)
I see lots of problems with 97 & 98 5.4's, but has anyone had any with the 99 version? If so, are dealers taking care of them pretty well?

shep posted 10-28-98 01:44 PM ET (US)
I have '97 with the 5.4 with 33,000 on and now I'm concerned because I have noticed this cold engine knock at startup lately. I did notice it before only when it was cold out. If it is pistion slap that is different. I wonder about the o2 sensor and maybe a free-er breathing air filter and free-er breathing exhaust. I knew I should have waited for the new super-duties and a V-10. Has anyone heard anything about the V-10 having a knock?

Hawkpilot Posted 10-29-98 06:12 PM ET (US)
New posts are supposedly getting attached to this thread, but I can't see any past 9/23. Can anybody read this one?

newhamp posted 10-30-98 10:17 AM ET (US)
Back in September I had indicated I felt I had the piston slap problem. I reported it and followed through with the dealer on my first oil change. They didn't hear it, when I had them come out to listen the lead tech. heard it and attributed it to a valve opening in the vehicle, fore and aft. We heard the noise in two places. I haven't heard the problem since a few days after the oil change.
I was out of the country for 8 days and the truck was idle the entire time. I have been driving it for almost three weeks now with no noise.
The lead tech. said you would know it if it was a piston slap issue because it is pretty loud in the cab. What's your take here? How loud is it? I am not sure I have the problem, however I am still listening. My truck was built in early August '98.
KFincher posted 11-06-98 09:50 PM ET (US)
I just got my '99 4x4 SC with the 5.4 L engine in it. I'm not exactly sure what the "piston slap" would sound like. Is it very loud or do you really have to listen hard for it? My only complaint about my truck is that it has a sweet burning odor coming from under the hood. Since this is the first new vehicle I've had, so I thought maybe it would go away, but with 788 miles on it, it still smells. I just wanted to know what to listen for so if it has the piston slap noise I could have it documented and let y'all know about it. Let's stick together because that's the only way these large corporations will be held accountable.

Dunbarton posted 11-07-98 08:42 AM ET (US)
Guys,
Have read these posts with much interest. Bought a 1999 F150 with 4.6 V8, 900 miles without any problems.
While I was ordering this vehicle in mid-August, I inquired to the salesman about the 5.4 V8. He told me the "4.6 is a better engine" so I ordered the 4.6 V8. I didn't inquire as to technically "why" the "4.6 V8 was better."
One fellow above in these posts admitted to using 10-40w oil. This seems like a direct contradiction to the owner's manual recommendation and I would be very careful admitting this to a dealer for engine warranty problems.
Am I to assume here that only the 5.4 V8 is the issue with the startup knocking noise?
The posts recommending DOCUMENTING with the dealer is right on. I also agree that blacklisting Fram and Purolator is a "cop out" and I would also be very upset if I was in Fram and Purolator management.
Have a good friend that has a 1998 5.4 (23,000 miles) and will ask him whether he has witnessed this noise.
Hey guys, we do have great vehicles but I would not let any of this go with Ford or the dealer lightly. It's called "cover your ***." Dunbarton

pnutfishn posted 11-10-98 03:34 PM ET (US)

O.K. something I've been trying and has worked 4 days in a row now. When cold starting the 5.4 try turning the ignition to the point just before actual startup and leaving it there for about 5 seconds, then start. (The same way you start a deisel). I've done this for the last 4 mornings in a row and have not heard the piston slap, which I usually here often upon cold starts. I'm guessing some oil is primed into the engine this way before the parts start moving but that's just a guess. Would love to hear feedback and experience on this.

sven posted 11-10-98 11:06 PM ET (US)
The only thing that would be active is the electric fuel pump. The oil pump is still mechanical isn't it?

Hawkpilot posted 11-10-98 11:42 PM ET (US)
Assuming pnut's solution continues to work, it would seem like maybe the sound is not piston slap but injectors "dry firing" before fuel pressure is up to spec? I'd be real surprised if the 5.4 used an electric oil pump that also came on with the fuel pump. I'd bet it is mechanical like the last post suggests.
I do not have an F150 yet, but I know that my Nissan V6 did some ticking on start when it had sat for a couple days, especially in cold weather. It sounded to me like hydraulic lifters before the oil pressure came up. It did that for as long as I can remember, and at 88,000 miles it still did not seem to be more than an annoyance.
I guess the questions I have are:
1) has ford definitely identified the problem as piston slap or otherwise? and
2) Has anyone with a 99 heard the problem yet?
PHertel posted 11-11-98 10:49 AM ET (US)
Hated to see the 5.4 posts. Have a 97 5.4 with 30K miles. Most mornings it sounds like a diesel(sp?) engine starting, only lasts 10-20 seconds. Guess I will have it checked out soon. Luckily I only have a 60K lease, so hopefully no problems before than. Otherwise, only had a battery replaced under warranty.
ps, if the stereo is on at all, it blocks the start-up noise completely.
Will follow this closely, Paul

pnutfishn posted 11-12-98 04:32 PM ET (US)
Well, unfortunately my little experiment has failed. I believe this was the sixth day and it knocked this morning upon startup. The only good news is that a friend of mine has a '97 light duty 250 with the 5.4 and almost 70,000 work miles on it (pulls 3 to 5 grand regularly). He has heard the noise all along but says he hasn't had the first problem with any part of the drivetrain and hasn't noticed any loss of power. If anyone out there has one close to a hundred thousand or more I would love to hear your comments.

Shale posted 11-17-98 04:16 AM ET (US)
Bbraynor, I just picked up a 99 Lariat two days ago. I will let you know how it goes. I traded in a 88 Ranger w/2.9l V6 for the Lariat, and sometimes it would knock (clatter) like h*ll for several seconds during morning cold starts. This occurred only a couple times a yr. The engine was running strong and smooth when I traded it in. I hope my 99 w/the 5.4L runs just as well. Bill

Shale posted 11-17-98 04:17 AM ET (US)
Bbraynor, I just picked up a 99 Lariat (bought it off the lot) two days ago. I will let you know how it goes. I traded in a 88 Ranger w/2.9l V6 for the Lariat, and sometimes it would knock (clatter) like h*ll for several seconds during morning cold starts. This occurred only a couple times a yr. The engine was running strong and smooth when I traded it in. I hope my 99 w/the 5.4L runs just as well. Bill

Don Lewoniuk posted 11-19-98 11:15 AM ET (US)
Well that knock is back again & i'm getting tired of it. I think we should get organized and start contacting Ford about this problem rather than individual dealers as none of them seem to be able to solve it.

KFincher posted 11-19-98 08:38 PM ET (US)
bbraynor... haven't heard from you lately... what's up with your truck? Any GOOD news? I'm curious as to what this piston slap sounds like. Is it loud or soft? My NEW '99 with the 5.4 has had a very soft noise since day 1 and I'd like to know if I should be concerned. Good luck to all of you who have the noticeable piston slap.

jrada posted 11-20-98 12:25 AM ET (US)
Well chalk up another 1998 F150 5.4 with startup knock. My f150 has only 3400 miles. The startup knocking(sounds like lifter noise), started this past Monday 11/16. It only happens after the truck sits for a while,6 to 8hrs. The knocking as most have explained lasts 15-30 seconds then goes away. I just changed the oil 2 weeks ago(first oil change) at 3200 miles. The oil change was done by me using all motocraft oil/filter.I did not here this noise prior to my first oil change? Obviously I'm very concerned about this noise and will continue to follow this thread for answers. I will also be seeing my dealer about this and if I find out anything new or interesting I'll post it. For me this is something I should be used to. My last 2 Chevy trucks: 86 S-10 4x4 w/2.6 V6- Bearings, crank shaft oil filter, replacement at 30,000 miles, loss of oil pressure again at 40,000.
It was gone. So let's give Chevy another try. 1990 Chevy Silverado 4x4 w/305 V8, Valve seals and head gasket replaced at 26,000 miles, starting blowing carbon chunks and using major oil at 45,000. It was also gone. So a few months ago I say, "why continue this punishment", let's try Ford, a new fresh start, right?.. I hope!. And now the talk of this "piston slap" problem. Sure why not, I'm used to this ***** by now. I hope this turns out to be something minor, but it sure doesn't sound good!

Dunbarton posted 11-22-98 11:58 AM ET (US)
bbraynor,
As I had promised earlier on this forum, I asked a good friend about his '98 5.4 liter (23,000 miles) startup noises and he has confirmed it all. He assumed it was an inherent quality of the engine. I encouraged him to have it documented by his dealer/Ford.
I printed out some of the earlier replies here and he contacted his dealer. The dealer claims to know nothing about it (not the same dealer I bought my 1999 4.6 liter from) and would like to see the Internet printouts I made. There has not been any problems with his truck including the noisy startup sounds however.
Will keep you posted later. Dunbarton

WDORREL posted 11-23-98 10:44 PM ET (US)
I ALSO HAVE THE 5.4 AND YES I DO HAVE THE STARTUP CLATTER ALSO A NEW NOISE HAS DEVELOPED, THE IDLER PULLEY IS MAKING A NOISE AT STARTUP THIS ALSO STOPS AS THE ENGINE WARMS UP---PS. WATCH OUT FOR STRESS CRACKS IN THE THIRD BRAKE LIGHT THEY WILL FILL UP WITH WATER VERY DANGEROUS WIRE SHORTS ECT. BY THE WAY MY BLUE OVAL IS A 98 LARIAT WITH 17000 MILES AND ALL OF THE FIVE OIL CHANGES HAVE BEEN DONE AT THE DEALER BY "SKILLED TECHNICIANS"... YEA RIGHT?

Don Lewoniuk posted 11-24-98 04:01 PM ET (US)
Here's some news neither good nor bad. Went to a different dealer to investigate our problem. The service manager immediately acknowledged that Ford knows of the cold start knock problem but has no idea how to fix it because they don't know whats causing it. His advice was to make sure the problem is documented with a service department and to keep in touch. At least they're not denying it.

Don Lewoniuk posted 11-24-98 04:13 PM ET (US
WDORREL - your concern on the idler pulley sounds suspiciously close to another problem engineering has identified. They describe it as a cold start accessory drive belt noise that lasts for around five minutes after the first start of the day when temperatures are lower than 50 deg F. They say the crankshaft damper needs replacement.

bbraynor posted 11-27-98 07:29 PM ET (US)
Hello,
I had to stop posting as this thing stressed me out. I have had 4 repair attempts with no progress. Here are the FACTS:
1. This is a piston slap. The skirt of the piston is too short. In unloaded, cold situations the piston can actually deflect, bounce, or rock in the cylinder. FACT. Thus, it happens at idle when cold.
2. FACT. There is NO FIX TO DATE. A Ford employee told me the MERCURY VILLAGER had a piston slap. NISSAN completely replaced the engines. Will it happen with the 5.4L? Don't hold your breath (not a fact).
3. FACT... FORD WILL FIGHT YOU ON THIS BIG TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Since I posted my phone number in September I've received 2 (Two) telephone calls! FACT Do not count on any 'class action' as there is a small base of support. You'll sink or win alone based on my experience so far (opinnion).
5. I have a case 12/03/98 with the Dispute Settlement Board. I received a copy of FORD's evidence and my case will be tough as each dealer says that though a problem exists, it is 'minor and does not affect the daily driving characteristics of the vehicle'. I have NO help on this. I would think anyone else who tries will be in the same shape. They have big resources. I can not afford the travel, loss of wages, and stress much longer.
6. I have a case pending for arbitration thru the Atty. Gen. of Fl.
7. FACT. If you have a knock, don't waste your time with tricks or alterations to try and fix it yourself. YOU CAN'T FIX A PISTON SKIRT PROBLEM IF FORD DOESN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO! I don't mean to sound snide.
8. OPINION! Your, our best WIN PLAN is that FORD HAS bought back some (very small number) 5.4s. This has set a precedent. Thsi is going to be my win plan. If they bought back some, they better buy back mine. If they don't it would seem to smell of, do I dare, Discrimination!
9. FACT this is a serious problem.
MULL THIS OVER.....In April of 1997 I know of at least 1 person who documented piston slap and requested buy-back. We bought our truck in AUGUST of 1997. Does it make you believe in honesty, good faith, Quality is Job 1, and all that junk if they sold us a truck with a knonw unrepairable defect. They took our money nooo problem. Even after that, when they know you know there is a problem, they deny, stall, and tell untruths. PROFIT IS JOB 1!!
Customer satisfaction is window dressing. They don't care about me or you. They hope we all think this is minor and go away. QUESTION, HAS ANYONE GOTTEN A LETTER FROM FORD LIKE THIS,"DEAR VALUED CUSTOMER, WE HAVE DISCOVERED A PROBLEM WITH 5.4L FORDS BUILT MODEL YEARS 1997-99. IT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR START UP NOISE. WE ARE HARD AT WORK ON A REMEDY AND WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED. OUR SOURCES TELL US THAT WE ARE IN FINAL TESTING. WE GREATLY APPRECIATE YOUR PURCHASE OF A FORD AND HOPE YOU WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. TO GIVE YOU PEACE OF MIND, OUR ENGINEERS TELL US THERE IS NO THREAT TO YOUR SAFTY IN THIS MATTER. THANK YOU, FMC.
YOU'LL NEVER GET ONE!!!!!
Good luck to you all in your efforts.

RobbC posted 11-27-98 10:20 PM ET (US)
I have a '98 5.4L with 7,000 miles and "no knocks". Did everyone with this unfortunate "knock" get it right from the start or did it appear gradually, and if so at what kind of milages? And did it seem to follow a particular event (oil change, heavy towing, weather changes, etc.)

bbraynor posted 11-28-98 07:42 PM ET (US)
If you read this entire post you'll find you either hear it (like me) or not (like my wife). You either believe it occurs to some degree in all 5.4Ls (me) or a select few (FORD and others. It is a piston skirt design flaw (FACT!). Either way, if you have a problem you'd either get it noticed or the Blue Oval will just wait until 3/36 is up. Engine replacements are $$$$. Good Luck!

pnutfishn posted 11-28-98 11:25 PM ET (US)

Alright so does anyone know how much the extended warranty costs? It usually covers the drivetrain up to a hundred thousand right? I think it's a smart investment if planning on driving the truck that long anyway and will gladly pay it to drive my Blue Oval.

ARWhite posted 11-29-98 11:28 AM ET (US)
Now wait a minute, bbraynor. Just because some of us don't hear this startup knock in our 5.4L's doesn't mean we're in denial. I've got almost 11K miles on my '98 5.4L and I have never heard the startup knock as described on this message board or that I heard in the audio file a guy emailed me that he made of his truck on startup. That said, I do, however, notice a difference in the way the engine sounds on cold starts vs warmed-up starts (cold meaning the truck has been sitting overnight; not necessarily cold ambient temps). The only way I can describe it is that it seems more "choppy" and not as smooth as when it's warm. I guess this can be interpretted as a knock so maybe it does happen in all 5.4L's to some degree, but I'll guaran-damn-tee you my 5.4L has never made the noise on startup that I heard in the audio file the guy emailed me. What's more my '89 Chevy sounded virtually the same when cold for 8.5 years and never got any worse. I've been listening closely to mine on startup since I first heard of this problem (about 8K miles ago) and it doesn't sound any different now than it did then. The coldest ambient temp it's been started at in the morning so far was probably low 40's so I'm anxious to see what it does in the near freezing temps this winter (I'm in Austin, TX, where it rarely gets below freezing). I'll keep my fingers crossed and report back periodically.

JSCOTT posted 11-30-98 11:42 AM ET (US)

I have about 15,000 miles on my 98 5.4L and have not heard the noise. I have a few questions about the piston slap noise. (1) Is this more frequent on the first 5.4L engines from the mid 1997 model year? (2) What exactly does it sound like? Is it similar to the first start after changing your oil? If so? (3) What kind of life are people getting out of these engines? Is anybody over 100K yet? If anybody has the wave file of the noise, I would appreciate a copy of it.
Thanks,
Jim
jscott@door.net

ml posted 12-02-98 09:42 PM ET (US)
Last spring my 5.4L Expedition developed a knock on initial start up. My dealer talked to Ford and they acknowledged the vehicle had a "piston slap" problem. They were "working on a fix", however if one was not be found they would gladly replace the engine with a rebuilt one. They suggested I wait for a while to see if they could create a fix. I tried unsucessfully to get them to buy back the vehicle or minimize the depreciation hit on a 99 but they wouldn't. I now have 60,000kms (36,000 miles) on the engine and Ford has not yet found a fix yet...time to take them up on the engine swap!

Some comments:
1. I have managed to dramatically reduce the amount of engine knock on startup by switching from Ford oil and filters to Mobil 1 Synthetic. Whereas the knock on initial startup was very loud and lasted up to 15 seconds on initial startup, it now only lasts for a very few seconds (max 4-6) and is much less pronounced (sometimes as quiet as a normal engine). While this has doubled the cost of my oil changes, it is worth it because it is much less stressful than listening to the knock each morning.
2. Other than the knock on start up, the engine has performed magnificently. In late August I drove my 5,000lb Expy towing a 5,000lb+ boat for over 2000miles and never burned more than a couple of teaspoons of Mobil 1. Even though I traveled on some of the hottest days in the summer, the temp guage never even budged off its normal running temperature even though I was traveling at expressway speeds and often passing transports through hilly terrain. The power I had day one, I still have after 60,000 kms (36K miles) and that has greatly reduced my concern for engine performance.
3. My only other problem with the vehicle amounted to a noisy suspension part (pitman arm) which had to be replaced this summer. Save for the engine knock, I am very pleased with the overall quality of the vehicle. Just last week I had my brakes checked (as I do every 6 months) and I was pleased to find that I have over 40% left after 60,000kms. This is very good for a vehicle this heavy and with this many "clicks" on it.
My net/net;
I am going to have Ford replace the engine under warrantee. Hopefully the replacement engine will not suffer the same problem. I have neighbours with the 5.4L who have had no such problems. Ford will provide a 20,000km warantee on the replacement. In the mean time for $1,000US ($1,500cdn) I have purchased an additional 5 year unlimited mile "bumper to bumper" warrantee (Global). $200-300 per year is a small price to pay for repairs and peace of mind.
To bbraynor;
I hope you get your settlement from Ford. Engine performance is and should be a very sensitive issue when purchasing a vehicle. If you want your money back you should get it! You shouldn't have to go through arbitration to get satisfaction. By that point it is too late! Ford's 5.4L engine is considered by many to be an exceptional power plant. It even shares a spot on the world's "top 10 engine list". It has obviously not lived up to our expectations.
Best wishes and keep us informed...

Indyfan posted 12-03-98 11:08 AM ET (US)
Engine knock. While I agree that engine knock shouldn't be happening on these engines I wouldn't go running to the dealer to complain with anything but a Motorcraft filter under the hood. The owner's manual speciafically say's "If a replacement oil filter is used that doesn not meet Ford material and design specifications, startup engine noises or knock may be experienced." Those of you that are using the Ford filter will have a better case to present.
On the other hand. Correct me if I'm wrong but what does the filter/oil combination have to do with piston slap? Piston slap is caused by ill fitting or out-of-tolerance parts, not by lack of lubrication. Isn't it?

ml posted 12-03-98 01:43 PM ET (US)

Re: indy fan post,
I agree, there appears that the "oil/filter spec" issue has been mixed up with the piston slap problem in some posts. I think this stems from the early speculation as to the diagnosis of knocks encountered by different members. Clearly all engine knock problems posted here do not relate to piston slap.
In my case, I have always used Ford only/dealer installed oil and filters. I have always done this specifically to avoid any potential warrantee issues and to build an ongoing relationship with the dealer in the case of a problem. It was only after Ford told me there was no fix and I should wait until my warantee was up before replacing the engine that I decided to try Mobil 1 synthetic oil. The awfull start up knock was driving me nuts. My neighbors would stare at the vehicle when it started up it was so apparent! Since installing the Mobil 1, the engine APPEARS to get up to normal idle speed much sooner. The faster this happens, the faster the engine heats up and the slap goes away. These are my observations. Hopefully Ford will provide me with a recommended course of action later on today as my warantee is now up in less than 200 miles.

Dunbarton posted 12-03-98 10:21 PM ET (US)
Just to demonstrate that the Ford dealers don't what what to do aboput the piston slap on the 5.4 liter V8s, my friend has a 1998 5.4 liter and complained to the dealer about his piston slap/knock which has been present from Day One. They told him to use Fram filters! Regarding the type of oil .... I am not aware that Ford is in the oil drilling/refining business. They buy it from others, just as GM does with "Mr. Goodwrench" oil. Any dealer telling you to use Motorcraft oil to prevent piston slap must be a goddam moron and anyone that believes this must be a moron too.
If a service department tells you this, tell them to go to the supermarket and buy some "clues."
The SJ/SH specifications on the oil containers is approved by all manufacturers, including Ford, and is agreed that ANY oil with this specification marked on the container meets or exceeds the lubricating specifications established by the factory, including Ford. Dunbarton

Superchips_Distributor posted 12-07-98 04:31 PM ET (US
ARWhite:
This is in answer to your post, which I have quoted below...
>>>What I don't know is does the computer advance the timing until spark knock is detected and then retards it until it is not thus giving you optimum timing for the octane you are running? Beats me...<<<
ANSWER: Unfortunately, no, this is not the case. The factory programming cannot take advantage of higher octane fuel. General Motors has done a better job of this particular function in the LT1 engines as installed in the Corvette, Camaro, Firebird, and Impala SS, though they still do not take full advantage of the available octane.
In order to take advantage of higher octane, you will need a replacement program, as in the use of an aftermarket chip, such as our Superchip. By the way, this is *not* an attempt to sell you anything, but rather I am merely trying to answer your question, as this is a question that many people would like to know the answer to.
I wish you all the best,
Mike Troyer
Performance products, Inc.

Tim A posted 12-08-98 11:32 AM ET (US
You are wrong. Period. I worked in Ford truck Powertrain for over 2 years. The 97 and beyond F-series, Expeditions, and Navigators WILL advance the spark if you are using higher octane fuel. This will give you a slight power increase, but you will probably only notice it if you are towing a heavy load.

dcd posted 12-08-98 12:00 PM ET (US)
Has this cold start knock been a problem in the 1999's? If ordering a 1999, would it be better to get the 4.6L instead, or go get a Silverado or Ram?

ironoxide posted 12-08-98 02:26 PM ET (US)
Tim A,
Is the "Cold Start Knock" truly piston slap? If so I find it hard to believe that Ford would not have fixed the problem by now. Unless the slap is a product of the cylinders degree of angle rather than merely having an insufficient skirt on the piston. Although, if it is the degree of angle, one would think the problem would be universal.
Tim A, I understand that your in a unique position, but please share with this board what your allowed. Thanks for the information.

Tim A posted 12-10-98 12:33 PM ET (US)
The "Piston Slap" issue came up after I changed jobs (I'm in the audio group now) so I don't have any details on it. If it is a problem, the engineers would be on it, they would not ignore it.

bassman posted 12-12-98 09:10 PM ET (US)
RE: Tim A.
Tim, first of all, thanks for your input into the discussions in these groups. Please do not take the following personally. Your input is greatly appreciated. But, I've been a long, long, long, time Ford Fan and it really feels lousy the way Ford and my dealer have treated me and I feel the need to express my opinion.
Being one of the individuals with the "Piston Knock" issue I beg to differ with your response. I believe that Ford is deliberately avoiding this issue. I have a 1999 F-150 Lariat Super Cab 4X4 with 1100 miles. When I took my vehicle back to the dealer, they verified the noise, and Ford issued a Service Message 12010 (see my other posts in "5.4L Engine Problem"). They don't seem to know what the problem is. It's a little mind bottling that all those engineers with all the equipment and technology they have at there disposal can't seem to find an engine noise. My guess is that they know exactlly what the problem is. They are just waiting to see how many of these engines hold together until the warranty period is up. After all, they have known about this issue since 1997!!!! If they don't see too many "bad ones", they will just shrug it off and take their chances at losing a few customers. So what if a customer has a vehicle that sounds like a diesel and shifts like a 75 Honda when they trade it in. It's not Ford's problem then, right?
Next is the "light duty" transmission (I've seen your posts on this issue). Mine is already starting to shift sloppy. It whines and slips into 2nd gear at slow speeds, and downshifts with a "thump" into second gear on moderate to fast deceleration. My dealer says it's normal. Very strange, my 1995 F-150 4X4 and 1986 F-150 4X4 did'nt shift this way?
My advise to anyone who is thinking of purchasing a new F-150 is DON'T BUY!!! Or wait as long as you can before making a purchase. If I would have read these posts prior to buying I probably would not have purchased my current vehicle. Maybe someday Ford will decide to put back some of the profits into the quality of these vehicles instead of "increasing the bottom line". At the very least, anyone who is thinking of taking a F-150 for a test drive should consider the following: Get at the dealership early in the morning and start up the vehicle before the dealer can "have it warmed up for you". Don't get in the vehicle to start it up. Reach in and start it up while standing outside the vehicle (this is when I noticed mine). If it has the knock/piston slap you will hear it. Unfortunately, I've seen some posts in here and other news groups that complain about the noise after a few thousand miles. You'll have to take your chances on this one.
Then, take the vehicle for a long...... test drive under various conditions (highway, stop and go traffic at various speeds etc). You will have a better idea of how the trani acts. If you hear or feel ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING you don't like, walk away. Chances are that your dealer and Ford won't do anything to make it right after you buy it. They will tell you that it's "normal" or "inherent". What they should say is "Shut up and pay for it for 4 or 5 years". Oh yes, and please buy another one from us when your ready to buy again.
I've owned 3 new Ford trucks and 2 used ones. Although, there have been some improvements to the new ones (ride, handling, brakes), these improvements don't mean much if the weakest links are the engine and transmission.
I really hope that the new Toyota Tundra is a huge success. Maybe this will inspire Ford, GM and Dogde to get their act together. I know that next time around, I will "give it a lot more thought". I would sure like it to be a Ford but it doesn't look good at this point in time.
Here's the good news! Ford just sent me a 50 year anniversary blanket with their thanks on being a "Loyal" Ford customer. Boy, do I feel better now!@!@!@
P.S. Tried putting the blanket on the engine and transmission. No help!

Buckaroo posted 12-13-98 01:07 AM ET (US)
Well, if there is one thing you folks have accomplished....it's that you have scared the hell out of me. I'm a former bowtie guy that bought my 5.4 supercab back in august 87. You can add me to the list that has the noise. I have a little over 17,000 miles on mine. Didnt really notice the problem until recently but then I usually have my radio loud when I start up. (and no, I noticed it before I came across all these messages) To me it seemed like a lubrication issue in that it goes away about the time the oil gauge registers pressure. The only other problem I had was a sensor that went bad from A/C condensation dripping on it. I wouldnt be surprised if FoMoCo knows something and wants to keep it quiet. Im still waiting to get my lug nut recall taken care of. They said they would contact me before the end of the year and I'm still waiting.

bbraynor posted 12-13-98 05:52 PM ET (US)
WE WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The dispute board sided with us and FMC is buying our truck back! It took alot of work, but they were actually fair and nice. We are going to purchase another Ford, but we wouldn't ever consider a 5.4 again. Ford avoided lemon law with us. To be truthful, I made alot of noise and Ford gave us what we wanted. They avoid lemon law, sell a new Ford, make profit, WILL RESELL OUR DEFECTIVE TRUCK (BUYERS BEWARE), and make us basically happy. I really feel bad for the 99 owners. This almost proves the design is bad. Think Vega 4 cyl. For the uneducated, thomas.kantrell@compaq.com has a site that shows what piston slap is. Give him a shout. If I can help anyone, call me a 352-726-3668. I know alot about this problem.
PS does anyone know the best over invoice Super-Duty price? Please let me know. CLOSURE........YES!

ml posted 12-13-98 07:22 PM ET (US
Congratulations! It's about time someone got satisfaction. Your win I am sure will go a long way to energizing the rest of us.
Is FMC applying depreciation to the buy back, or are they giving you 100% of your money back. My dealer said they (the dealer not FMC) would buy my truck back for the price I paid..less about 25% depreciation. Their argument was that since it is now a year old, I have gotten the first year's use out of the vehicle, and year one depreciation is in the 25% range.

Debo posted 12-15-98 05:17 PM ET (US
Glad to see someone is getting results. I've taken my '98 4.6 in twice to different dealers for piston slap, transmission slip and other small problems and get the run around every time. I bought a new truck so I didn't have to take it to the shop or repair it. Guys, what's wrong with this picture? Don't get me wrong I love Ford Trucks but putting up with this crap from FMC is getting hard to swallow. Take me back to the days of the 351.....

Superchips_Distributor posted 12-15-98 09:53 PM ET (US)
To ALL:
With regards to Ford's policies regarding buying back vehicles, I have had some experience at this, and so I want to let you know what I've learned.
1.) Ford will start to entertain the idea of doing a buy-back once the vehicle has spent a total accumulated time of 30 days at the dealership for the same problem(s). Not 30 days in a row, but a TOTAL of 30 days spent at the dealership for the same problem. For whatever reason, this is the point at which Ford internally says there is a problem they need to be ready to compensate the owner for.
2.) For new vehicles, Ford generally will only pay you what is known as "A Plan" price for your vehicle. I'm not saying this is a hard and fast rule, just what they try to do. Read on.("A Plan" is the price that Ford employees can buy FoMoCo vehicles for.) For example, one of the vehicles they bought back from me was a 1992 Ford E-150 custom van. In this case, I showed a profit, because I bought this van after it had been sitting on the dealer's lot for over a year, and paid far less than what even the dealer had actually paid for the vehicle. It was a very expensive (for that time, mind you) E-150, with a total sticker in excess of $30K, but I paid just over $22K for it. Because the "A Plan" price was more than I paid for it, I showed a profit. At the point that Ford bought the van back, it had 7000 miles, and I had owned it for about 5 months.
3.) At that point, Ford will also offer to sell you any vehicle they make for "A Plan" pricing. This is how I purchased my first of three Lincoln Mark 8's, as between getting more than I paid for the van, and getting the Mark 8 at A plan, it was too good a deal to pass up.
4.) Ford will compensate you IN FULL for any aftermarket equipment (I.E., a high-zoot stereo) you have had installed on the vehicle that cannot be removed and transferred to your replacement vehicle. (Whether the next vehicle is a FoMoCo product or not.)
5.) Ford and it's engineers know *all about* the 5.4 engine's piston slap problem. And they don't want it to happen to you, either. But they are NOT going to voluntarily buy your vehicle back, or even replace the engine, this will happen ONLY if you MAKE them, assuming the problem is actually severe enough. So far, I don't know of any 5.4's that have actually failed due to this problem.
Just a few words of experience,
Mike Troyer
Performance Products

Digital Dweller posted 12-16-98 04:19 AM ET (US)
OK, I've just spend the last 45 minutes reading all of these posts...(and they scared the hell out of me I might add) I have a '99 w/ 5.4L (of course), had it for 4 days. <300 miles. The first day I had it I said "Geez, that doesn't sound quite rite" after I starded the engine. I didn't think much of it and blew it of since it's a brand new truck. I'll let you all know what happens in the morning as I hang out of my window with the window down starting my truck.....

ml posted 12-16-98 02:16 PM ET (US)
Re: Superchips...
Thanks for your comments re FMC buy back. I especially appreciate your comment about forcing their hand. No more Mr. Nice Guy! Here I come FMC! Thanks again...

Superchips_Distributor posted 12-16-98 08:49 PM ET (US)
Dear ml,
Just remember to thoroughly document your situation, and remember that Ford doesn't take notice until the vehicle has had to stay *overnight* at the dealership for a *total* of 30 days.
One more point is that most of the Ford Zone Representatives that I have dealt with have been good, reasonable people. Histrionics will *not* get you a good result in any case. The best thing to do in my opinion is to polite, but firm in your desire to get what you paid for, which is a relatively trouble-free new FoMoCo vehicle.
I wish you well,
Mike Troyer
Performance Products
540-862-9515

Gary D Brittain posted 12-17-98 01:57 PM ET (US)
I have read all the problem stated on the motors and just had to check my vin because I have heard no clack,chatter,slapping or anything. But that doesn't mean there isn't any because I am a Viet Nam vet and have some hearing loss, I was worried. I am one of the lucky ones, I guess mine has a W in the vin it is also a 4.6 97 flareside I ordered from the factory in 96 so I think timing might have made a diference. Thanks to all for the information posted here. Good luck to all if U have problems. Gary

topsy posted 12-22-98 03:48 PM ET (US)
It seems to me that this is a problem that would not be related to the place of manufacture (regarding if the 4.6L engines). My '97 model is now a little over 2 years old, 18k miles, and I've heard the noise once, a few weeks ago. Has anyone with 'W' VIN noticed this problem. (I haven't checked my VIN yet to know which one I have)

 

There ya go. Where did you find it?

------------------
Fast46Triton

1999 Ford F150 XLT Supercab, Shortbed, 4x2, 4 wheel disc brakes/4 wheel Anti-Lock Brakes, Cloth Seats, Amazon green, 16" All season tires, Soft Tonneau Cover, CD Player, 4.6 liter Triton V8, 3:55 ls, towing package, 4 speed auto, K&N Airfilter

 

I had it stored on my computer in a directory called FordAmmo

 

Brings back old memories!

New readers who are unfamiliar with this post should understand that it goes back to a time when the first crop of piston slappers were looking for a fix from Ford. There is now a fix of course (replacement engine), and the most current threads on the topic spell it out for those who are interested.

Thanks for digging this up...