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  #1  
Old 04-29-2005, 12:58 PM
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Propane/NG/Hydrogen VS Gas

I'm researching converting my F-150 into a bi-fuel with hydrogen injection. My fuel of choice for this is propane. Why? Well let's look at propane vs gas. Now I know this has been done for years on the old engines with carbs. Which I feel gave propane a bad name in performance.

Facto #1 - Propane is 104 octane vs P. Gas at 97. Here in california that's pushing $3 a gallon for gas and $1.89 for propane.

Facto #2 - the air/fuel mix for propane is 15.7 to 1
the air/fuel mix for gas is 14.7 to 1 and 12.7 to 1 on cold start up

Facto #3 - when the liquid propane enters the cyclinder it converts to gas by heat transfer of the air entering the cyclinder. This results in a cooler running engine. For all you guys hauling loads and over heating.

From what I have read so far about this on a liquid propane injected engine, there is no horse power loss or loss in mpg.

Seeing how propane burners so much cleaner than gas and cost a lot less for the octane rating, why not do the conversion?

Is anyone working on a conversion kit other than me?

Now for the Hydrogen part.

Reseach has shown that a 5% increase in Hydrogen entering the engine will result in a 10 to 15% increase in hp and mpg.

Well guys, hydrogen is only .5 ppm of the air our engines use. That's .5 parts per million. So a increase of 5% would only be .525 ppm. I haven't tested this, but I'm working on it.

If I inject .05 cfm of hydrogen into my engine, I'm inceasing the hydrogen level by a factor of 1000. Now for those not good at math, that's a lot more than a 5% increase. This is not like injecting NOS, but it could be if the volume is to great.

I'll be looking for you comments.

Have a great day.
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  #2  
Old 04-29-2005, 03:14 PM
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I would be interested in hearing how this turns out.


If only they had a nuclear conversion...Man it would be nice to fill up today and not have to worry about putting more fuel in till 2025.
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Old 04-29-2005, 03:43 PM
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As far as propane goes the motor will make less power, not alot less but some, I do not know the exact reason for this but I have seen specs on newer efi vehicles equipped to run on it and they make less power. It may be just the way they have it setup though, or they are being "safe". I look forward to hear/read how it goes for you as far as hydrogen goes.

Last edited by Schism9; 04-29-2005 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 04-29-2005, 09:11 PM
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Propane has a lower BTU than gasoline.
Pound for pound, it doesn't produce as much heat so that's why power is lower.
No idea about the Hydrogen part, sounds interesting but remember what happened to the Hindenburg
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Old 04-29-2005, 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by EnglishAdam
... but remember what happened to the Hindenburg

LOL. I think most of us on here are not old enough to "remember" the Hindenburg.

Also, that was hydrogen gas, this is hydrogen fuel. Same results I supposed. But if our truck blew up, we'd rocket straight into space..
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Old 04-30-2005, 01:12 AM
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15 gallons of hydrogen it takes to make the same power as one gallon of gas. there was an article posted about hydrogen powered how we would hurt the environment more by switching to it and we'd have to drive out cars every like 2 hours and that the hydrogen has to be kept below -20C so it doesnt explode in ur car.. other fun things like that.
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Old 05-02-2005, 10:57 AM
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Ok Guys let me explain about the hydrogen again.

I'm not going to run my truck on just hydrogen. It takes far too much hydrogen to produce the same power. What most people miss is that a small increase in hydrogen in the air the engine is breathing makes a larger increase in engine performance. The hydrogen content in the air we or our engines breathe is 0.5 PPM. Thatís five part per million by volume. Thatís a very small amount. So how does increasing the hydrogen help? Well as some of you have already said, hydrogen is flammable. Increasing the content in the air mixed going into the engine gives a much cleaner burn due to the fact you burn more of the fuel. Test have shown that the burn across the cylinder is more uniform and of a high intensity with just a 5 to 10 percent increase in hydrogen. I found this on a college website but I canít remember where.

Now you still have to make the hydrogen as you use it or store it in a compressed gas bottle. The compressed gas bottle is no more dangerous than carrying liquid propane, gasoline, or NOS (nitrous oxide) on you car or truck. So how do you make hydrogen as you use it? Well thatís not to hard to do either. It takes 1.6 volts of electricity to break down water into H2 and O. Both of which your engine just loves to have more of. If you think of your battery as being 6 cells of 2.0 volts each, a hydrogen cell with 6 cells of 2 volts each will produce all the hydrogen you need. So now youíre carrying water and not an 800 to 2500 PSI bottle of hydrogen on your truck. The engine breathes the hydrogen in as you make it. No you wonít make enough to hurt the engine. The computer will adjust the engine as needed for the increase in hydrogen. It does this with the oxygen sensor.

Hereís what CAR and DRIVER had to say about running liquid propane in a police car.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
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Old 05-02-2005, 12:22 PM
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Just talked to the guys at DRV Energy in Oklahoma City. They told me their phones have been ringing off the hook with gas prices over $2. I just made a blind call to these guys so take this for what it's worth.

They said without changing the compression ratio you can get about 95% of the HP you get on gasoline and within 1/2 to 1 MPG.

You can not get the full benefit of 104 to 110 octane without changing the compression ratio inside the engine.

Hey at $2.65 for 87 octane vs $1.70 for 104 octane and only a 1/2 to a 1 mpg loss, i'm gonna take a hard look at what's out there. I hope Mike or some of the other great guys here might help point me in the right direction.

Oh. I just found out I get to write the whole conversion off on my income tax.
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  #9  
Old 05-03-2005, 01:58 PM
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Update

Just talked to Kevin Vick at Bi-Phase. At this time their liquid closed loop propane system is not being sold on the aftermarket. They have their handsful converting Schwan fleet trucks. What he did tell me is that with the closed liquid loop, they are at or above the orginal HP and better on the mpg. He couldn't give me anymore details than that, but they are looking at entering the aftermarket again.

The research continues.
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Old 05-03-2005, 09:12 PM
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Are we still waiting on the Flux Capacitor and Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future?
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  #11  
Old 05-06-2005, 04:36 PM
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LeanNCut

I guess you are still thinking of the vapor injection systems of the past.

Everyone here seems to only know of this type of propane system.

The liquid injection system gives equal to more horse power and mileage. Don't take my word for it. Look it up.

Yes I know that if I want to take full advantage of propane I need to go to a higher compression ratio. But at a dollar plus less per gallon, I'll settle for just equal power and mileage.

The vapor injection systems are 4%-6% less on power because you're displacing the air in the manifold. You don't have that with liquid propane injection. The heat transfer of the liquid propane to gas in the manifold actually increases the air density. The higher the air density the more power you make.
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Old 05-07-2005, 09:58 PM
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What about Natural Gas?

In the research that I have done on bi-fuel vehicles I have found that Natural Gas is also a very effective fuel conversion in that it offers greater octane ratings as well as a more easily compatable hardware. The down side to this fuel is availability. What do the rest of you guys think?
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  #13  
Old 07-31-2008, 02:16 PM
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3rd vehicle on propane

I had a chrysler new Yorker on propane via carb suction, a 97 truck by throttle body propane and now 2006 with propane injection. the cost for conversion in Canada was 4 grand for the propane injection...
I had to many problems with my 97 truck as it had a carbon fiber intake plenum... and every time a sensor gave a hickup, the propane rich plenum would go boom... hense everyone at work gave my truck the name boomer... I went through 3 plenums over the 10 years I had the truck, but got over 400,000 km or 240,000 miles with a spotless engine, the propane injection is by far much better, with more power on the 3.5L HO engine on my chysler 300... and yes, I was able to write the conversion off on the taxes and also got back about 1200 dollars from the governent for going green, but be aware.. if you have any kind of warrany on your vehicle. it is not valid any more.... I am wishing to try the hydrogen on my Jeep but it looks like it may not be the best option and possible boomers again as it would go through the throttle body which I wanted to avoid....
Just to let you know, our gasoline here is sitting at about 130 per L which about the size of a quart. so about 5 dollars and change per gallon as of July 31 2008, the propane I fill up where the limos and taxis go and pay 65 cents per L.. or 2,60 per gallon, my tank is 100L or 25 gallon and will auto switch back to gasoline when the tank goes down to 20% left.. my average fill price is 50 dollars per fill and can get 330 miles per tank... I drive 60 miles round trip to work and the savings have been great... and the payback period lasted about one year as best as I can calculate it... so I am now home free and green.
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Old 07-31-2008, 02:22 PM
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3rd vehicle on propane

I had a chrysler new Yorker on propane via carb suction, a 97 truck by throttle body propane and now 2006 with propane injection. the cost for conversion in Canada was 4 grand for the propane injection...
I had to many problems with my 97 truck as it had a carbon fiber intake plenum... and every time a sensor gave a hickup, the propane rich plenum would go boom... hense everyone at work gave my truck the name boomer... I went through 3 plenums over the 10 years I had the truck, but got over 400,000 km or 240,000 miles with a spotless engine, the propane injection is by far much better, with more power on the 3.5L HO engine on my chysler 300... and yes, I was able to write the conversion off on the taxes and also got back about 1200 dollars from the governent for going green, but be aware.. if you have any kind of warrany on your vehicle. it is not valid any more.... I am wishing to try the hydrogen on my Jeep but it looks like it may not be the best option and possible boomers again as it would go through the throttle body which I wanted to avoid....
Just to let you know, our gasoline here is sitting at about 130 per L which about the size of a quart. so about 5 dollars and change per gallon as of July 31 2008, the propane I fill up where the limos and taxis go and pay 65 cents per L.. or 2,60 per gallon, my tank is 100L or 25 gallon and will auto switch back to gasoline when the tank goes down to 20% left.. my average fill price is 50 dollars per fill and can get 330 miles per tank... I drive 60 miles round trip to work and the savings have been great... and the payback period lasted about one year as best as I can calculate it... so I am now home free and green.
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:33 PM
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I've looked into converting my F150 over to run on LPG (propane). There are some really good kits out there that are EPA approved and can net you some tax breaks and incentives. As cheap as CNG is, I wouldn't go for the power loss it comes with (up to 25% loss )

In my case, Utah would pay 50%, up to $2500, of the conversion cost. I'd get to drive in the HOV/ car pool lane no matter what, free parking at any city meter and subusdised fuel that's produced in North America. I've talked to an electrician who converted his '05 5.4L FX4 and 4 4.6L trucks over to LPG. They took about a 8% loss in economy, but did feel the performance improved.

Though, conversions seem to be fairly spendy to have done. Buying the kit and doing it myself seems like the route I'm going to take. It's an "underhood" component kit, so I'm guessing I'll have to come up with my own tanks and lines.

http://autoparts.rasoenterprises.com...roducts_id=106

This seems to be the best kit I've been able to find. Too bad their customer relations bites. I get pointed towards local conversion shops that are autherised dealers for tech questions. Once they get a feel that I'd want to install my own kit, they get tight lipped about their "full" conversion process which cost twice as much as the technacarb kit.

http://autoparts.rasoenterprises.com...products_id=80

Here's an older, less efficiant kit (from what I've been able to gather from the garbled craptastic customer support)

http://autoparts.rasoenterprises.com...roducts_id=106

I'm not worried about getting the kit installed...... more of the tuning to use the injected kit.

[/off topic babbel]
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:33 PM


 
 
 
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