Truck is a better asset than...>

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Old 10-24-2009, 09:46 AM
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Truck is a better asset than...>

A house.

This is my prediction for the next few years.

Doom and gloom, EOTWAWKI, Collapse of the US economy what have you.

I think, and many others as well, that the worse is yet to come, and the the highly inflationary bubble that the US government is creating, along with the lack of "production" in the US. Face it we are not the manufacturing base we used to be. This will be even worse than the 1930's.

1930's, most people didnt' have a mortgage, most didn't have credit cards, most people could grown their own food, and relied on friends and family.

Owning a truck (and possibly a trailer) could be a good "investment" for someone who needs to move in a hurry. Owning a house that you can't move could really hold someone back from moving.

I think my plan is to pay off the truck, buy an enclosed trailer, and be ready for anything. I figure, the bank took the same "bet" that I did so we are equally at risk. My risk is that I can't make the payment, their risk, the value of my house goes down below what I owe on it. For me, I can walk away anytime, for them they are stuck with a house.

I'll take the truck thank you!

For your reading pleasure Trends.Research Institute Founder Predicts That The Worst Is Yet To Come
 
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:18 PM
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I certainly will not be getting rid of my truck anytime in the foreseable future!
 
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:54 PM
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I'm paying off my truck too. I just ordered a 2 horse slant load trailer that can double as an enclosed trailer as well. Good thinking. Don't forget about stocking ammo! A couple of hand guns and a .22 mag rifle with a 50mm scope makes a great cheap sniper/combat set up. If necessary of coarse.
 
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:11 PM
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I just hope I can get into an F150 in 2011.
 
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by avfrog
A couple of hand guns and a .22 mag rifle with a 50mm scope makes a great cheap sniper/combat set up. If necessary of coarse.
I don't know if I would want to snipe someone with a .22 mag. Might wound them and **** them off enough to pull their stuff out (which is probably bigger) and sling some lead your way.

I would rather have at least a .223 or larger (preferably a .270, 30-06, .308 caliber range) You hit them they go down.
 
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Old 10-25-2009, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by msparks
I don't know if I would want to snipe someone with a .22 mag. Might wound them and **** them off enough to pull their stuff out (which is probably bigger) and sling some lead your way.

I would rather have at least a .223 or larger (preferably a .270, 30-06, .308 caliber range) You hit them they go down.
Wrong. Sniping with small caliber rifles at semi-close distances make it a kill shot. Especially head shots. This is because the round has enough "umph" to penetrate the skull but not enough to exit and will bounce around. Many assassins/killers use 9mm/.22cal rounds for this reason.

Large calibers are used for long range to ensure it penetrates.

This is also why the 5.56 is so deadly. It tumbles as it follows its trajectory; Tears through the body and then breaks up inside the body into small pieces.

Now if you shoot the guy in the toe, leg, or buttocks or something silly, maybe not. But, you need to learn the 3 shot killing rule. 2 center mass and 1 head. That always stops them.

For all gun nuts, please read this; http://www.futurefirepower.com/myths...-556-cartridge I am also quoting my text from this website. I post this not to defend the 5.56, but so a person may understand why a smaller round can be more lethal than a larger round.

Soldier up.
Excerpt
There are a lot of myths and misconceptions surrounding the current M16A1, M16A2, M4, M16A4NATO 5.56 round and its effectiveness on the battlefield. Now before you make a judgment as a soldier or as a firearm enthusiast (a more euphemistic way of saying “gun nut”), consider your sources. Who is it that is telling you the 5.56mm, or .223 if you prefer, is an ineffective round? Is this source an armchair general who has watched Blackhawk Down one too many times; or a Navy Corpsman who has been attached to a MEF fighting in Fallujah and has seen, treated and inflicted these wounds with his own M-4? People look at the .30-06 round from their grandfather’s M1 Garand and the 7.62×51mm round from their dad’s M-14 and compare it to the M-16/M-4’s 5.56 and think; “Wow, this is considerably smaller. Therefore, it must be less effective.”
Now Joe Nichols had it right when he said, “Size Matters.” However, when you are talking about combat cartridges this is not always the case, and I say that hesitantly. When the 5.56 was derived from Remington’s .223 in the late 1950’s, it was meant as a “force multiplier” if you will. By that I mean a soldier could literally carry twice as much ammunition as one who has the older 7.62 for the same weight. They wanted a soldier who could stay longer in the field without re-supply and could literally out-last and out-shoot the enemy in many aspects. The 5.56 is an incredibly fast and flat shooting round compared to the 7.62, but is under half the bullet weight.

So one might ask; ‘How in the world can a smaller bullet be more lethal than a bigger one?” One word: cavitation. Cavitation is the rapid formation and collapse of a substance or material after an object enters it at a relatively high velocity. I guarantee you have seen cavitation before. Next time you are in the pool or on the boat, look at your hand as it passes through the water or the propeller spinning. In both cases you will notice bubbles on the trailing edge of each. You see this because the liquid water falls below its vapor pressure. Without getting into physics and the hydrodynamics behind it, I’ll just leave it at that. When a human body is hit with a 5.56mm 62-grain bullet traveling at 3,100 feet per second; essentially the same thing happens but much, much more violently. For a split second, the cavity created inside the human body by the round from an M-16/M-4 is about the size of a basketball (if hit dead center of mass). The 5.56 creates this massive cavitation by tumbling through the body initiated by inherently unstable flight.


Other calibers of bullets travel through the body on, more or less of, a straight line after some fragmentation. When the 5.56 round was first designed by Remington, it was meant to tumble through a target, not kill with brute force. It did this not only by the relatively blunt shape, but also by using a rifle barrel with less of a twist. Next time you look at an M-4 or an AR-15, notice it says “5.56 NATO 1:7” on the barrel. This literally translates into; “the bullet will make 1 full rotation for every 7 inches of this barrel.” This was not always the standard twist set for the new NATO round. The first AR-15 made by Armalite, had a 1:14 twist making it a very, very unstable round. One can only imagine the orientation of the entry and exit wounds. Now if you haven’t figured it out already, the less the twist, the more unstable the round is. (1:14 twist is less than 1:7) It is said in “firearm enthusiast” legend that the first tests were done on pig carcasses and that the entry wound could be on the lower right stomach with an exit wound coming out of the back upper left shoulder. It left horrific wounds and terrible internal damage to its intended target, immediately drawing the interest of the US Military, in particular USAF General Curtis Emerson LeMay. That’s right folks, you can thank we in the United States Air Force for the M-16/M-4 legacy (I say this without sarcasm). He thought it was an ideal weapon for his deployed members of the USAF Security Forces for guarding the perimeters of Air Force installations in such places as Korea and Vietnam. Before military trials, Armalite increased the barrel twist to 1:12 to improve accuracy. But when tested in frigid Alaska, accuracy was decreased because of the increased friction from the denser, colder air. Therefore, the barrel twist was eventually increased from 1:12 to 1:9 and eventually to the 1:7 you see it today. Although some bull-barreled AR-15’s and Stoner Sniper Rifles can be found in a 1:9, most issued M-16’s and M-4;s are primarily a 1:7 twist.

This change increased the accuracy of the 5.56 round out past 500 meters, but decreased its lethality when striking a body. Now the real debate begins… How truly deadly is the 5.56? Well, this past April when I was going through Combat Skills Training at Ft. McCoy, Wisconsin, one week was spent in Combat Life-Saving class (CLS). The medics who instructed us had slide show after slide show of combat injuries they have treated over their last three deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. And let me tell you, these were not for the weak stomachs among us. If you are reading this article, I bet you are the same type of person as I to ask, “What calibers caused those wounds?” These men and women have seen the worst injuries of coalition forces and enemy combatants alike. The Geneva Conventions state that medics must provide medical care to all captured enemy personnel when able. Therefore, many Taliban and Jihadist fighters came across their operating rooms. After class one day I asked all of them, “Do any of you doubt the killing power of the 5.56 round?” They all answered with a resounding, “NO.”
I personally don’t like telling war stories but I do enjoy telling hunting stories. I have brought down 180 to 200+ pound deer with a 55 grain .223 FMJ (full metal jacket) with no problem. Yes, I know, the counter argument to that is, “Well that’s not an enemy combatant hopped up on cocaine, khat or adrenaline.” I understand that, but if you saw the exit wound or those on the pictures from the combat medics, you would certainly cease your criticism of the 5.56. However, there are certain design features of the M-16/M-4 that continue to puzzle me.

We have all heard the reports of those rifles failing during combat during Vietnam and even yet today. During the 60’s when it was first introduced, it was hailed as “the self-cleaning rifle.” Of course that was proven to be a myth within the first months of its service. Soon thereafter, cleaning kits, cleaning manuals with attractive cartoon-like characters, and muzzle covers were issued in large numbers. A lot of the first problems the rifle saw were due to using ball powder vs. stick powder. Ball powder burns hotter, faster and dirtier than stick does. This caused the rifle to gum up quicker in the humid atmosphere of Vietnam and mis-feed the rounds. The U.S. Military then switched back to the cleaner burning stick powder and added a forward assist to jam the bolt carrier forward after heat expansion and carbon build-up. The military saw this problem and fixed it fairly early on, so why haven’t they saw the clear flaw in the 100% gas-blowback operation of the firearm? Why haven’t they learned lessons from rifles such as the AK-47, AK-74, G36, SCAR and countless other who have switched to a short stroke gas piston?

So far rifles such as the HK 416, HK 417, SCAR and MAGPUL Masada have all incorporated this short stroke gas piston in their designs and have all seen massive reductions in carbon build-up, over-heating, and mis-feeds. If this needs any explaining; what this basically does is stop the hot, carbon-filled gasses just rear of the front sight and pushes a pistol-like rod back instead of the gas traveling all the way back to the bolt carrier assembly. It is even possible to convert current uppers to this gas piston system using such kits as those offered by Bushmaster. If the cost benefit is too great for these kits to be installed, why not begin to install them on the floor as they are now? They are 100% compatible with all lowers used by the M-16 and M-4.

So in conclusion, the main flaws of the M-16/M-4 assault rifle system is not necessarily in the round itself, but in one minor design feature of just the upper. This article is meant as a predecessor to a piece in the making on the advantages to switching to a round such as the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. The 5.56 round is effective, but could be better. I want to hear your feedback. Tell me why so many people (mostly civilians) think the flaws of the rifle are in the round. I’m looking to you military folks; tell me about your operational experience with it. Airsoft players, armchair generals, and firearm enthusiasts; let’s hear your voice, but don’t comment on its “knock-down power” unless you hunt big game with a .223 or were once in the military and have used it in combat. Next up: A viable future replacement for the 5.56 and the M-16/M-4 combat rifles along with first-hand news from the front on forces already making the switch.

Remember; every rifle and every round can be equally as deadly when put in the right hands. We seek to find the perfect round and the perfect rifle to increase that number of hands.
And yes, I know you said you'd want a .223 or larger. I was explaining for everyone. .223 is only slightly larger than a .220 (22 LR)
 

Last edited by OrdnanceCorps; 10-25-2009 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 10-25-2009, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by OrdnanceCorps
Wrong. Sniping with small caliber rifles at semi-close distances make it a kill shot. Especially head shots.

And yes, I know you said you'd want a .223 or larger. I was explaining for everyone. .223 is only slightly larger than a .220 (22 LR)
I have no doubt that .22lr or .22 mag head shot would do the trick. I know for a fact it would. Many people have died with a self inflicted .22 shot.

But, when I think of sniping I think of at least 200-300 yards (Minimum) shot from a concealed position with a great escape route.

You snipe the person, then leave pronto. Isn't that what sniping is?

I just don't think I would trust something that small for a 300 yard head/neck/throat shot.

.223 would do it I guess, but that bullet is pretty darned small and can be affected by even the slightest wind (I'm a soldier and I've shot it a lot) and yes I can hit the 300 meter targets. But that's different than sniping.

So lets look, 300 meters at moa would be 3" target. That's the area of your eyes and nose. I would much rather have a sub MOA high powered rifle for sniping.
 
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Old 10-25-2009, 11:13 AM
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I was thinking cheap stock pile for rifle. .22 are a dime a dozen!
 
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Old 10-25-2009, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by avfrog
I was thinking cheap stock pile for rifle. .22 are a dime a dozen!
I agree with that. I wouldn't want to be shot by either .22 or .22 mag. You could carry hundreds of them in your pocket.

I have a ruger single six with 2 cylinders. one for .22lr and one for .22 mag. I really enjoy shooting the .22 mags. But the .22 mag is a lot more expensive than the .22lr.

Is there a such thing as too many guns or too much ammo? Heck no.

Now on to find a good enclosed trailer. Hmmm?
 
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Old 10-25-2009, 01:00 PM
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msparks - I am not here to hate on you, so please don't get the wrong impression. I am assuming by your profile you are either reserve or national guard which means not many. So unless you own your own m4/16 how many times have you shot such a weapon? If I am wrong on this, I truly digress.

The M4/16 5.56 is very accurate and hardly loses any trajectory due to it's super sonic traveling speeds. The 300 meter target you claim to hit, you have an adjustment of barely a a few inches. That's upward aim of course to make up for the trajectory or gravity. You don't even need to adjust sites for things 300 meters or less. Just adjust for travel loss, again of only a few inches less than a foot down travel.

Also, the 22LR round is also good and accurate without much compensation for drop. The 22 rimfire goes at average 1200 FPS. That is a little more the 1/3 of the 5.56. Do NOT forget the 22LR and 5.56 are near the same in size calibers. Don't forget the 5.56 Nato is 62 grain while a standard 22LR is 40 grain depending on manufacturer all the way up to 60.

The 22LR will go for at least a mile. Accurately depends on the shooters ability to adjust for trajectory.

Please refer to said charts. You are under estimating this round, believe me.

You can also refer to this info http://www.jbmballistics.com/~jbm/cg...bmdist-5.0.cgi

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1986/MVT.htm



So you understand. A 22LR round will definitely kill a person at 300 yards with the right trajectory and massed area. Any bullet if not shot correctly will not kill be it a .22cal or a .45cal.

I don't know what you mean when you say the 5.56 round will bounce off of everything? What the hell are you shooting that the round bounces off? The berm?

Enjoy bro.

Hooah?
 

Last edited by OrdnanceCorps; 10-25-2009 at 01:18 PM.
  #11  
Old 10-25-2009, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by OrdnanceCorps
msparks - I am not here to hate on you, so please don't get the wrong impression. I am assuming by your profile you are either reserve or national guard which means not many. So unless you own your own m4/16 how many times have you shot such a weapon? If I am wrong on this, I truly digress.

The M4/16 5.56 is very accurate and hardly loses any trajectory due to it's super sonic traveling speeds. The 300 meter target you claim to hit, you have an adjustment of barely a a few inches. That's upward aim of course to make up for the trajectory or gravity.

Also, the 22LR round is also good and accurate without much compensation for drop. The 22 rimfire goes at average 1200 FPS. That is a little more the 1/3 of the 5.56. Do NOT forget the 22LR and 5.56 are near the same in size calibers. Don't forget the 5.56 Nato is 62 grain while a standard 22LR is 40 grain depending on manufacturer all the way up to 60.

The 22LR will go for at least a mile. Accurately depends on the shooters ability to adjust for trajectory.

Hooah?
This internet stuff is so hard to get a point across, especially when we are thinking two different ideas.

Anyhow, I don't disagree with you on the accuracy of the .22lr or .223.

I've taken some amazing shots with a .22lr in a rifle, and even in a pistol for that matter.

Honestly I've never shot a scoped .223, but I would also believe it's pretty darned accurate as well. And even at 200-300 yards has plenty of energy to penetrate.

Heck, I've taken some amazing 200 yard shots with my .44 mag revolver, but I wouldn't consider them "sniper" qualified.

Anyhow, with over 20 years active and national guard time, I've been to the range many times. So not a big deal, the 300 meter targets seem to be getting farther away (maybe it's my age I don't know)

In a pinch, I would have no problem shooting somone with a .22lr. With a good scoped rifle, dime sized shots are common at 50 yards. I've taken head shots on squirrel at 75 yards or farther so the accuracy is there.

Back on topic. My truck will be the last thing to go as far as assets go. They can have the house!
 
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:49 PM
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I sighted in my .22 rifle last year with my 50mm scope. Propped, I can shoot quarter sized groups at 100 yards.

msparks... I agree again! I owe way more on my house than my truck!
 



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