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  #1  
Old 11-13-2010, 10:35 PM
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command start anti theft disarm

So I am doing a command start for a friends 2002 f150 and I can not find the anti theft disarm wire. Its supposed to be green with a purple stripe. Does anyone know where I can find it?? Everything else works fine but if I leave the truck locked for 30+ secs and try and start it it will just crank. If I hit unlock it will start fine. Anyone know where I can find this wire?? Its a crew cab king ranch if that makes a difference.

Thanks,
Adam
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  #2  
Old 11-13-2010, 11:54 PM
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There is no circuit called a "anti theft disarm" in a F-150.
The anti theft is between the Key and the HEC ( in the cluster ) and the HEC to the PCM over the SCP communications network.
The HEC sends the valid key tag with the PCM_ID configured in the HEC to the PCM for comparison to know if the start enable should be valid or invalid ( this stops a thief from installing a new cluster and keys programmed to the HEC in that cluster w/ a key cylinder cut to the new keys, to steal a truck, still need to complete the programming prior to making it work ).

Green w/ Violet stripe is the door ajar switch input on the OEM RMST/RKE ( and VSS ) system to terminal A-20. This is connected to the Black w/ Light Blue stripe wire on the truck.

The system you are installing, the mfgr cannot even read the OEM install directions correctly ( they gave you the wire color on the RMST module, not the truck side ).

The Black w/ Light Blue stripe wire is in the passenger side kick panel, 16 pin connector ( 4 rows by 4 columns )

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

This is the only Green w/ Violet stripe wire I can find in the RKE/RMST & RKE/RMST/VSS install directions. The only "anti theft disarm" is a correctly programmed PATS bypass module, added to the HEC. I am guessing you have this done, as you can start the truck if you press unlock ( which turns on the interior lamps ?? )
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  #3  
Old 11-14-2010, 09:43 AM
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Well ever install sheet I can find says this:

FACTORY ALARM DISARM DARK GREEN/PURPLE (-) IN DRIVERS KICK PANEL

I cannot find this wire, I found one wire that could be it but it was obviously not the right one. I have a properly installed PATS module as the truck would not start at all without it working. Now when I leave the truck locked for more than 30 seconds the truck just turns over and the the theft light on the dash comes on. If I unlock it it will start right away. From what I've checked is that there is a factory alarm(or antitheft or whatever) and when I lock it arms it and when I unlock it disarms it since the lock and unlock wires are the same ones used for the factory keyless entry. Now there should be a way I can disable this. It should be the above wire but I can't find it. The black and blue wire in the passenger kick panel is the dome light wire and I am currently tied into it and using it as my door sensor. It is a positive wire and the antitheft line from the command start is a negative wire so I would require a relay, but I'm pretty sure if I hit this it would just set off the alarm anyway. I have installed lots of command starts for friends and family and myself so I'm not new to this. Any help is appreciated.

Adam
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  #4  
Old 11-14-2010, 11:35 AM
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There is no such thing as a "FACTORY ALARM DISARM" the F-150.

1st reason : If there was, you could just jumper this wire to hot wire the truck, and would make the above noted process for PATS keys a huge waste of manufacturing.

2nd reason : There is no factory "alarm" on the F-150, the only way to get an alarm / VSS on a F-150 is to add a Ford Gold RKE/RMST/VSS system ( which was code Alarm in 2002 ). The only factory alarm was in 1997/98 MY trucks. In 1999 this was no longer offered due to the introduction of PATS ( the starter interrupt was now a PATS process ). The 99+ MY F-150 has an immobilizer, not an alarm. See above post on how the immobilizer works, nothing to do with an external circuit ( no place in the process for this ).

Nothing is "armed" on the truck when locked.

The additional symptom of crank no start and the theft light flashing is the PATS bypass is not operational under that condition.
What is causing the RMST not to activate the PATS bypass under that condition, but works correctly when the doors are unlocked ?

The blinking theft light on the cluster when trying to start is the same as a non programmed key ( or non PATS key ) being used to try to start the truck.
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  #5  
Old 11-14-2010, 01:54 PM
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I'm sure there is no wire that says "FACTORY ALARM DISARM" but there is a wire to dissable factory security...and I'm not talking about PATS. My PATS module works fine and it will start all day long unless the vehicle is left locked. PATS does not arm when locked and is always required even on unlocked vehicles.

I have done probably 20 different command starts in all kinds of makes and models including an 04 and 05 F150. Almost every vehicle I have done requires a transponder key type bypass as well as a FACTORY Antitheft disarm wire. I've seen this exact problem before, I just can't find the proper wire to hook into. Compustar starters actually allow you to unlock then start and then lock which I have used before. This is a viper and does not have this option.

If anyone has done a starter on an 01-03 could you please help me locate the wire to use for disarm.

Thanks,
Adam
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  #6  
Old 11-15-2010, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adams05crew View Post
....<snip>....but there is a wire to dissable factory security...and I'm not talking about PATS. My PATS module works fine and it will start all day long unless the vehicle is left locked. ....<snip>...
There is no factory security. None what so ever.
The issue you are seeing is a non programmed PATS key trying to be used.
For some reason the RMST is not enabling the PATS bypass.
That is what the flashing theft light means. You can read that in the owners manual.

If you have done this on 04 & 05 F-150s, what circuit did you use ( the circuit, not the wire colors ) ?
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  #7  
Old 11-15-2010, 10:22 AM
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  #8  
Old 11-15-2010, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJanet View Post
Sometimes it's hard to get people to understand, isn't it Steve?

- Jack
You can say that again.

Bit of googl'ing on the topic, it seems the GEM needs to be poked to wake it up, it only checks every 30 min.

I have yet to find a correct GEM wake up diagram for a F-150, as the ones I can find have the GEM controlling the locks, which is not the case on the F-150. Either the door locks are controlled directly by the PDL switch ( without the RAP/CSM ) or from the RAP / CSM if equiped with factory RKE.

The diagrams I find for the F-150 with the GEM wake up install ( requires an external relay and 1 or 2 diodes ) show the dark Green w/ Violet stripe wire from the GEM. The only wire color with Violet in it from the GEM is for the ESOF GEM type, and it is for contact plate A. That is the only one checking the circuits & connectors in Cell 59.
The RAP ( up to 2-OCT-00 build dates ) has a Violet / Light Blue wire, but this is unlock driver's door ( the 2 stage unlock of the factory RKE ) and it is non applicable for the MY in this thread, as the '02 has a CSM, and the wire color changed.

This is what I find when looking for directfax document #1093.

I did see one where the door ajar switch was double pulsed to wake the GEM up. This makes the GEM think the door was opened and closed, which it is waiting on something to happen. If nothing happens, the GEM goes back to sleep and only checks every 30 min.

The left door ajar switch to the GEM on the '02 F-150 is Black w/ Yellow stripe wire. This would be a SPDT relay inline with the Normally closed contacts inline with the Black w/ Yellow stripe wire.
The RMST would double pulse the relay ( ground -> Open -> Ground -> open -> Ground ).
The reason for the double pulse, is the pulse width is too quick to wake the GEM up, and have the GEM see the door transition, where a person opening and closing the door take quite a bit more time than a pulse from the RMST.

Quick way to test if what I read is true, after locking the truck with the RMST / RKE fob, Use the key to unlock the truck, open and close the door, and try to remote start the truck.

Seems directfax document #1093 is very generic to GEMs, and only gives 2 installs with and without the factory RKE, and the configuration is not what a F-150 is.

The same document is references with 04+ MY F-150s, which is a joke in itself. The 04 ( New Body Style ) + F-150 no longer has a GEM, as the functions in it were moved ( OTD is in the switch, Wiper Delay control is in the wiper motor, etc ).
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  #9  
Old 11-15-2010, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJanet View Post
Sometimes it's hard to get people to understand, isn't it Steve?

- Jack
Really, have you ever installed a command start in one of these trucks? Steve seems to have a lot of information but every document on the internet says I need to find this wire.


Thanks for the info Steve and this is what I have found already about waking up the GEM:

After hooking up the door locks if you notice that they will not unlock after the vehicle sets for a few minutes you will need to wake up the gem.

This is not the issue, it will unlock and lock just fine.

I just found this from a mod on the 12volt forum:

Since you did not post the exact make and model of your vehicle I will post referencing a 2001 F150.
The GEM wakes up when it sees the door open so for your aftermarket system to work you need to pulse the door trigger wire for the GEM to wake up. Set your unit to double pulse it's unlock output and use diodes to isolate (stripe facing the your unit). Hook your unlock output to the driver's door ajar wire (black/yellow) as well as the unlock wire (pink/green). If your vehicle has a factory alarm you need to pulse the factory disarm wire with this output too (dark green/purple) as well as using the factory alarm disarm output on the same wire.
I install mainly DEI products that have the ribbon cable running to the external relay pack. I actually cheat when I do one of these trucks. I run the unlock output from the system to the pink wire in the ribbon cable in addition to the door unlock wire in the vehicle. The pink wire in the ribbon is the wire that turns on the ignition relay. Setting the unit to double pulse unlock the first pulse will energize the ignition during the pulse which wakes up the GEM. This will however also energize the ignition every you press unlock for the duration of the door lock pulse.
Some trucks do not have the GEM and do not need to have this interfacing done. To test for the GEM open the driver's door, roll down the window, press lock on the door and shut the door. Wait 2 minutes then reach in the window and press unlock at the door switch, if the doors unlock you do not have to worry about the GEM interfacing. You would test for the factory alarm in the same manner except instead of pushing unlock, open the door using the inside door handle...if the horn does not beep you do not have a factory alarm.


Just do a search on the interent for F150 and dark green/purple wire and anti theft and you will find tons and tons of posts. I will try to get ahold of this guy to help me find the wire.
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  #10  
Old 11-15-2010, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adams05crew View Post
...<snip>....every document on the internet says I need to find this wire....<snip>....
And the 1+ hour I did google'ing on it I saw the same posts and the best I could find was it was from the GEM.
No dice on a F-150. Not 1 of the documents I read said what connector it was in, or what it really is, just tons of posts quoting the install documentation from DEI and Viper ( others ? ).
When the search produces generic information on Ford GEM, which the F-150 alone has 5 different GEM versions for each MY, and they are not interchangeable with the other models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adams05crew View Post
...<snip>....To test for the GEM open the driver's door, roll down the window, press lock on the door and shut the door. Wait 2 minutes then reach in the window and press unlock at the door switch, if the doors unlock you do not have to worry about the GEM interfacing....<snip>....
This not testing for a GEM on the F-150, who ever wrote this does not know squat about the F-150.
All 97-03 ( and 04 Heritage & L ) F-150s have GEMs. If they did not, a ton of stuff in the truck would not work. The GEM was introduced to remove all the individual Control Modules ( i.e WCM = Wiper Control Module, LCM = Lighting Control Module, etc ).

The power door locks on the F-150 have zero to do with the GEM.
The only 2 options for Power door locks on the 99-03 ( and 04 Heritage & L ) F-150 is with and without RKE.
Without RKE, the PDL switch operates the PDL directly, and the fuses are hot all the time.
With the RAP/CSM the PDL switch is a trigger to the RAP / CSM which operates the PDL. This is also Hot all the time, else the RKE would not work ( this is the receiver for the RKE ). The only interface from the GEM to the RAP / CSM is for the illuminated entry ( the RAP / CSM signals the GEM that it needs to turn on the interior lamps ) and the door ajar indicator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adams05crew View Post
...<snip>....You would test for the factory alarm in the same manner except instead of pushing unlock, open the door using the inside door handle...if the horn does not beep you do not have a factory alarm.....<snip>....
Filter to know if you need to do this test, is it is 99-03 ( and 04 Heritage & L ) there is no factory alarm, don't bother testing.
This was only an option in 97 & 98 MYs.

See what I am getting at, the information floating around the internet about the GEM and factory alarm are really just generalizations that are applied to a wide range of Ford products, and have nothing to do with the F-150, specifically the 2002 with CSM that you are doing an install on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adams05crew View Post
...<snip>....Just do a search on the interent for F150 and dark green/purple wire and anti theft and you will find tons and tons of posts. .....<snip>....
I know there are tons of posts, but no reply if this wire was found, or what it is. Basically a tons of posts quoting the DEI & Viper GEM documents ( those show this Dark Green w/ Violet wire from the GEM, along with the locks ) and no detail of the connector or what the wire is really for, and again not applicable to the F-150.

Looking at the Factory Perimeter alarm ( only on the 97 & 98 MY, Non applicable to your install ) the factory security has a cylinder tamper circuit to the module, this is Dark Green w/ white stripe and a Light Green w/ violet stripe wire this is to the Autolamps. Dark green w/ pink striped wire, this is the door anti theft switches and a light green w/ pink stripe to the starter interrupt. No Dark Green w/ Violet stripe wire, and it is not to the GEM as the alarm manufactures diagrams show. The factory alarm was removed when PATS was introduced in '99 on the F-150.

BTW: Your install on an '04 & '05 F-150, non applicable to the '02 you are working on ( unless the '04 was a Heritage or L ). If you did find this wire, you cannot be assured it is the same circuit on the '02 you are working on.
The 99-03 MY and the 04-08 MY are night and day different in terms of wiring ( let alone everything else changed on them ).

Back to the question above, why when you wait 30 seconds and try to start the truck, does the PATS bypass not operate.
At least that is what the flashing theft indicator on the cluster is indicating, trying to start with a non programmed key, which in RMST installs means the PATS bypass module is not functioning correctly.
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  #11  
Old 11-16-2010, 09:01 AM
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Hi All...I am "the guy" who posted the information on the12volt.com in reference to waking up the GEM...

To "SSCULLY"..although I see you are much more knowledgeable than I am about these trucks, and apparently VERY helpful in this forum, I do take offense to you statement of "This not testing for a GEM on the F-150, who ever wrote this does not know squat about the F-150. ". I misspoke by stating testing for the GEM, this does not test for the "existence" of the GEM but it is a method that WILL allow you to check to see if the GEM goes to sleep. Reading through that old post I see a few flaws in it (ie referencing an 01 but still explaining how to check for a factory alarm) but as someone pointed out, the methods listed will also allow you check for a factory alarm, regardless of the specific vehicle. I understand that you are probably frustrated with adams05crew for not 'getting' what you are trying to say. Just keep in mind that the forum the quote was taken from is not a F150 specific forum, and when that post was made it was made for someone trying to wake up a GEM....NOT someone looking for a wire that does not exist just because it's in a cheat sheet somewhere.

To Adams05crew's question about the 'security light flashing' when trying to remote start while the aftermarket system is locked. It has NOTHING to do with the GEM, door locks, arming, or as a matter of fact the truck itself as the truck is behaving as it should. It is a problem with your remote start. I think you are on the wrong status output wire (or whatever terminology command start uses). Your remote start has a wire that will send a negative output when remote starting that turns on the PATS bypass module you have installed. If you take out your meter and probe that wire I am certain you will see the wire is not providing a negative when the system is locked but is providing it when unlocked. I am not familiar with that brand of RS but most have a low current negative ignition output that you could use to turn on the PATS module instead of the wire you are currently using.
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2010, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelvoltz View Post
Hi All...I am "the guy" who posted the information on the12volt.com in reference to waking up the GEM...

To "SSCULLY"..although I see you are much more knowledgeable than I am about these trucks, and apparently VERY helpful in this forum, I do take offense to you statement of "This not testing for a GEM on the F-150, who ever wrote this does not know squat about the F-150. ". I misspoke by stating testing for the GEM, this does not test for the "existence" of the GEM but it is a method that WILL allow you to check to see if the GEM goes to sleep. Reading through that old post I see a few flaws in it (ie referencing an 01 but still explaining how to check for a factory alarm) but as someone pointed out, the methods listed will also allow you check for a factory alarm, regardless of the specific vehicle. I understand that you are probably frustrated with adams05crew for not 'getting' what you are trying to say. Just keep in mind that the forum the quote was taken from is not a F150 specific forum, and when that post was made it was made for someone trying to wake up a GEM....NOT someone looking for a wire that does not exist just because it's in a cheat sheet somewhere.

...<snip>....
Sorry if you took offense to my posting, I can only guess it is the harpoon method that you took offense to. If so I apologize for the harpoon method, but by your own admission, the "a few flaws in it".
Does not know squat, few flaws, some inconsistencies, all these get to the same point, the post contains incorrect information.

With a site like the12volt.com, which is considered the site for information on 12 volt systems, incorrect information is spread like wild fire over the internet.
This does bode well for the12volt.com's standing in the Internet community ( which is the focus of the site's owners ), but posts like this are what puts bad information all over the place. I can say I found that thread refereed to quite a bit ( I lost count north of 10 times ).

The bad part about this, it turns into the Factory Alarm Disarm / Dark Green w/ Violet stripe wire in the Left kick panel myth.

As you can see adams05crew's insistence that the function does exist, due to being on sites that are considered the source, or directly reference sites that are the source, and ignoring the question I asked 2 times ( same as your question ). Has to be the mythical wire...

Can I suggest that you change your post to remove the F-150 reference ? Not just the model year, but F-150 all together as the GEM on the F-150 has nothing to do with the PDLs.
Maybe make it a generic Ford reference, as it does seem to be applicable to the Windstar model ( and others ?? ).

I will say I know nothing about any other brand of RMST/RKE/VSS other than Ford's ( Code Alarm variant ). I can only ask questions based upon what the truck is doing.

Last edited by SSCULLY; 11-16-2010 at 10:27 AM.
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2010, 05:38 PM
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I just kinda briefly skipped through this with my phone but there have been a few of these trucks over the years that for some odd reason I have found have a factory security system in them. I'm not talking about the Ford add-on alarm with the LED in the dash but a actual factory alarm. It always gets me too. I'll put the remote start or alarm system into the truck. Lock it up. Go get the customer to show him his system. I'll go to unlock the doors with the new remote and find that they will not unlock or even worse the horn starts pulsing at me. Very embarrassing and I try to check each one out now. Most of the ones that I have found that have this are the King Ranches in both F150 and SuperDuty as well as some of the other trim level ones. Also there are a few trucks out there with Ford's "Slam Lock" (which was the old name) and better known now at "Interior Door Trim Disable" which will make the door unlock "go to sleep" 20 seconds after the doors have been locked. The 2002 through 2006 Explorer actually has in the owners manual how to enable and disable it.

This is how I check if the vehicles has factory security

If the vehicle does not have factory keyless key fob.

1a. Sit in the truck or have the window rolled down if outside. With the door open hit the lock button on the door and then close it. I may not have to be open when doing so but it's just the way I was taught and works so I use it.

If the vehicle has factory keyless entry
1.b Sit in the truck or have the window rolled down if outside. Close the door and hit lock on your factory key fob twice.

2. Wait 20 seconds and then pull the door handle from the inside of the truck. This will automatically unlock the door and open it. If it starts honking then you have an alarm!!!! This Green with Violet Stripe wire can be found in the door boot coming from the driver's side door. This will pulse a ground when you turn the key to unlock the door.

Now with the "Slam Lock" or "Factory Trim Switch Disable" feature there are two ways to go about it. Most vehicles I will just wire a relay to pulse the ignition to "wake up" the GEM module. You will need to setup your system to double pulse the unlock wire because it will pulse the first time to turn the ignition on and "wake up" the GEM module and then the second pulse will then unlock the doors for you. The other way is to wire the alarm disarm wire to the door latch wire. Quite a few Fords have a yellow with black stripe wire for the door latch but you will have to test this because it is different on some vehicles.

The way to test if your vehicle has this "Slam Lock" or "Interior Door Trim Disable" is to follow the same procedure as above but instead of opening the door just simply try to unlock the doors with the door panel unlock button. If it doesn't do anything then you have this feature.

Keep in mind that because we are pulsing the ignition some vehicles will leave the radio on for 10 minutes or until you open the door due to the silly feature that leaves the radio on after you turn the key off.

It has taken time but the aftermarket industry is realizing that these vehicles have special needs. The Compustar systems actually have a feature that you can turn on to pulse the ignition before unlocking the doors. Very handy for these types of vehicles or the newer Fords that require the key to be turned on in the ignition to disable the factory alarm such as in the new SuperDuty, Focus, Fusion and others.....but that is a totally different posting.
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Last edited by KCAutosound; 11-16-2010 at 05:44 PM.
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