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  #1  
Old 07-23-2009, 08:07 AM
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2006 F150 XLT 5.4L Starter Relay??

All,

does the 2006 f150 have a starter relay on the firewall? could somebody post a picture of where it is at?

I'm having trouble finding it.

Thanks in Advance.

More information

After I left the Gas Station last night, it sounded like the starter was still engaged, I turned the Key Off and it sounded like it was still cranking over. After a few seconds of it cranking over, it shut off.

I Started the truck again and everything was fine. I drove the 2 Miles back home and parked the truck. Tried a couple of times throughout the evening to get the problem to repeat but everything seemed fine.

This morning i jumped into my truck to head to work and turned the key and nothing happened.

I Checked the battery, Lights were bright, radio came on, power locks / Windows everything worked fine, truck just wouldn't start.

I jumped the solenoid under the truck and the starter started to spin, however SScully had previously told me that there is some kind of Starter Relay, however i think that was for an older truck.

I traced the wires coming out of the starter solenoid and they go straight to the battery. I didn't see any more wires or where they would be running to any kind of Starter Relay aside from the solenoid.

I Tried again at lunch and it didn't work either.

My assumption is that there is something "sticking" Because it seemed to Stick in the "Start" Position last night and it seems to be sticking in the "Off Position" today.

Any Help or insight will be greatly appreciated!!!
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  #2  
Old 07-23-2009, 12:19 PM
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The starter relay is in the Central Junction Box (fancy name for fuse panel) beside the passenger's right foot. I don't think this relay is replaceable by itself - it may require replacing the whole box.

But, I'd be surprised if it was at fault. Did you try starting the truck with the gear shift in neutral? You may have a faulty/maladjusted DTR sensor, which is located somewhere on the left side of the transmission.

- Jack
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  #3  
Old 07-23-2009, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJanet View Post
The starter relay is in the Central Junction Box (fancy name for fuse panel) beside the passenger's right foot. I don't think this relay is replaceable by itself - it may require replacing the whole box.

But, I'd be surprised if it was at fault. Did you try starting the truck with the gear shift in neutral? You may have a faulty/maladjusted DTR sensor, which is located somewhere on the left side of the transmission.

- Jack
Jack,

I was hoping you would weigh in on this!!!

I have tried starting the truck in Neutral but it didn't work. I hear a click by the passengers right foot when i turn the key so it seems to me that the relay is working.

When i jumped the solenoid on the starter i hear the starter spinning, however it is not engaging to the fly wheel. I even had my friend try turning the key to the start position when i jump the solenoid but it didn't engage their either.

I think it may be something in the solenoid but it seems to me that it is just easier and more time efficient down the road to replace the whole starter / solenoid unit. Rather than trying to take the solenoid off and just replace it.

What do you think?

Thanks

-Marty
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  #4  
Old 07-23-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrolgren View Post
Jack,

I was hoping you would weigh in on this!!!

I have tried starting the truck in Neutral but it didn't work. I hear a click by the passengers right foot when i turn the key so it seems to me that the relay is working.

When i jumped the solenoid on the starter i hear the starter spinning, however it is not engaging to the fly wheel. I even had my friend try turning the key to the start position when i jump the solenoid but it didn't engage their either.

I think it may be something in the solenoid but it seems to me that it is just easier and more time efficient down the road to replace the whole starter / solenoid unit. Rather than trying to take the solenoid off and just replace it.

What do you think?

Thanks

-Marty
I think I agree, but, it sounds like the Bendix drive (do they still call it that?) is dirty/broken/whatever. You MAY be able to replace just the starter, but it's probably not worth it to try to separate it from the solenoid.

If the starter spins, the solenoid is working, but the gear is not being pushed out onto the flywheel to turn the engine.

- Jack
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  #5  
Old 07-23-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJanet View Post
I think I agree, but, it sounds like the Bendix drive (do they still call it that?) is dirty/broken/whatever. You MAY be able to replace just the starter, but it's probably not worth it to try to separate it from the solenoid.

If the starter spins, the solenoid is working, but the gear is not being pushed out onto the flywheel to turn the engine.

- Jack
Well the starter only spins when i jump the solenoid, which made me think that the solenoid was bad.

I think I'm going to throw the new starter / solenoid combo in it tonight and see what happens. The part is only $147 here in Maryland so I guess it is a pretty inexpensive fix if that works.

I'll Keep everybody posted on my problem

Thanks Jack!!!

-Marty
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  #6  
Old 07-23-2009, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrolgren View Post
Well the starter only spins when i jump the solenoid, which made me think that the solenoid was bad.

I think I'm going to throw the new starter / solenoid combo in it tonight and see what happens. The part is only $147 here in Maryland so I guess it is a pretty inexpensive fix if that works.

I'll Keep everybody posted on my problem

Thanks Jack!!!

-Marty
Ahh - I think I understand why you said what you did now. The starter relay uses a relatively low power input from the ignition switch to close a contact that sends a higher powered signal to the starter solenoid. This signal powers an electromagnet that moves a contactor so that "heavy" battery power is delivered directly to the starter, through a BIG wire. The solenoid is effectively another relay. This causes the starter to spin.

The spinning action of the starter, through centrifugal force, moves the starting pinion gear out so that it "meshes" with the ring gear. This is the "Bendix" drive I spoke of. I think some solenoids may move the starting pinion gear partway to the ring gear, but the spinning action of the starter does the rest. And, when the ring gear speeds up as the engine starts, the pinion retracts (or spins free).

So, if the starter spins but doesn't engage the engine, it points to a bad Bendix drive.

- Jack

Last edited by JackandJanet; 07-23-2009 at 06:31 PM. Reason: added "spins free"
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  #7  
Old 07-24-2009, 08:15 AM
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An Update on the starter for anybody paying attention to this thread.

Got the old starter out, (top bolt is almost impossible... Ended up using 1/2" Deep Well socket, a knuckle, a short extension on a 3/8" ratchet and a lot of swear words)

Got the new one in but as I was FINGER tightening the ground bolt on the solenoid, THE TOP OF THE SOLENOID (PLASTIC) SHATTERED!!! WTF!!!

Anyway we carefully hooked back up the battery to make sure no arcing or anything. And Voila the truck starts.

Now i have to go back to carquest and get a replacement solenoid today at lunch so that i can get this sucker fixed.

I'll update again when it is done.

Thanks again Jack!
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  #8  
Old 07-24-2009, 11:18 AM
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Nothing's ever simple, is it? Hard to believe they'd make something like that out of plastic. I don't suppose you could use the solenoid off your old starter? (I've never even looked at mine, so I don't know if the OEM units are 2-piece or not).

- Jack
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  #9  
Old 07-24-2009, 09:55 PM
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The OEM ones ARE 2 Piece, however I'm still thinking the solenoid was at least part of the problem.

I got the old starter out yesterday and the new one installed,

I got the new starter out today and installed the newer one after the fiasco with the one I installed yesterday.

Works like a champ... I was much quicker the 2nd time around... sucks that I'm getting good at this starter replacement thing!

Thanks for your help Jack.

If anybody has any questions on a 06 5.4 starter swap, I'm now your guy!!!
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  #10  
Old 07-24-2009, 10:59 PM
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You're the "Expert"! Don't get weary of all the questions you're going to get.

I still think the old solenoid is fine. Save it in a "parts" drawer - nevr know when it might come in handy!

Glad you're back in business!

- Jack
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  #11  
Old 07-25-2009, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJanet View Post
You're the "Expert"! Don't get weary of all the questions you're going to get.

I still think the old solenoid is fine. Save it in a "parts" drawer - nevr know when it might come in handy!

Glad you're back in business!

- Jack
Jack- From what I remember, Ford went to the solenoid operated engagement quite a few years ago. They used the centrifugal engagement for many, many years but finally came into the 21st century with similar to what GM had used for a long time. Actually, I believe what his problem was is the solenoid because if the starter just spun, but didn't engage, the starter was OK. The electromagnet in the solenoid is what pulls the gear into engagement- no more centrifugal engagement. The solenoid is actually pretty easy to change, but it very probably would require removal of the starter to do it. Could be wrong, but I think that's a pretty accurate picture.
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  #12  
Old 07-25-2009, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by code58 View Post
Jack- From what I remember, Ford went to the solenoid operated engagement quite a few years ago. They used the centrifugal engagement for many, many years but finally came into the 21st century with similar to what GM had used for a long time. Actually, I believe what his problem was is the solenoid because if the starter just spun, but didn't engage, the starter was OK. The electromagnet in the solenoid is what pulls the gear into engagement- no more centrifugal engagement. The solenoid is actually pretty easy to change, but it very probably would require removal of the starter to do it. Could be wrong, but I think that's a pretty accurate picture.
Trouble is, the solenoid is what completes the direct battery electrical circuit to the starter. Hard to see how this part can work and then not have the pinion extend, if it's all done by the solenoid. The kind of mechanism you describe is just a lever that's moved by the solenoid to extend the pinion. It would have to be broken, possibly at the pinion shaft.

And, if you kept the starter engaged after engine start with this arraignment, you'd have a pretty big mess. There just about has to be a Bendix type engagement mechanism in here somewhere.

As I said earlier, the solenoid may take part in the mechanical part of the process, but I don't think it really provides for engagement and disengagement.

- Jack
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  #13  
Old 07-25-2009, 12:56 PM
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Code is correct... The solenoid CAN Be removed, however the screws are going to be so tight and corroded on that you will never be able to do it from below the truck.

IMO the starter has to come out even to take just the solenoid off. (unless you are very lucky)

Once you find the bolts, it really isn't much of a job to replace the starter in these trucks.

Like I said above, all you need is 1/2" Deep Well socket, a knuckle, a short extension on a 3/8" ratchet and a lot of swear words and the starter just falls right out!
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  #14  
Old 07-25-2009, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJanet View Post
Trouble is, the solenoid is what completes the direct battery electrical circuit to the starter. Hard to see how this part can work and then not have the pinion extend, if it's all done by the solenoid. The kind of mechanism you describe is just a lever that's moved by the solenoid to extend the pinion. It would have to be broken, possibly at the pinion shaft.

And, if you kept the starter engaged after engine start with this arraignment, you'd have a pretty big mess. There just about has to be a Bendix type engagement mechanism in here somewhere.

As I said earlier, the solenoid may take part in the mechanical part of the process, but I don't think it really provides for engagement and disengagement.

- Jack
Jack- you think in pretty logical ways, and I like that, but the solenoid electromagnet is indeed responsible for the engagement of the starter drive gear into the ring gear. There is no spiral cut on the shaft which is necessary for the centrifugal engagement. It is shoved straight in at the same moment the starter is powered. I agree with you that the same electromagnet that pulls the contact plate in operates the lever to pull the starter gear into the ring gear. I don't know right off hand why the starter gear isn't pulled in when the starter is energized, but I doubt it is actually a broken arm. This is definitely not the 1st. time in history this has happened. I had a starter off a collision vehicle that had only minor damage to the solenoid but I think I may have tossed it when cleaning up or I would go look at it. I had saved it because the car was only about a year old and the starter was undamaged. I'll see if I might still have it, but I doubt it.

Indeed you are correct that you would have a mess if the starter stays engaged after the engine starts, and obviously that has happened as well. He even stated that it sounded like it stayed engaged. The starter isn't made for the the type of RPM's that are generated at freeway speeds if still engaged. Normally you can hear the whine it generates if it does not disengage when the engine starts. You may possibly even be replacing the ring gear (flex plate).

Last edited by code58; 07-25-2009 at 04:20 PM.
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  #15  
Old 07-25-2009, 05:50 PM
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OK. And you're right about my opinions being the product of the way I do (or don't) think.

I'll accept that the pinion is a positive engagement mechanism, even if I can't figure out how it would work well in practice. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Thanks, Code!

- Jack
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:50 PM


 
 
 
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