Hi all. Got a question. How would you truly measure/data log the performance of a ram/cold air intake? The Volant for instance... or maybe one of the custom fabricated cold/ram air ducts seen elsewhere on this site. The velocity of air entering the duct should be very close to the speed of the vehicle, right? At 65 mph would the engine not have more available air than if it was sitting stationary on a dyno? Would the vehicle speed build up somewhat of a positive air pressure entering the motor? Say you had a XCAL2 from troyer and wanted to data log for tweaking... how would you replicate real world driving with sucha setup? Thoughts? Opinions? THANKS

 

You can rent a huge 6' fan and put it right in front of the left fender and turn it on.Bam you @ 80mph air input in no time at all.dyno,datalog,tweek, BOOM your there!

 

What you are saying about the ram air system is true. You will not get the true reading until you are actually moving at highway speeds. This would be difficult to measure on a dyno (while you're sitting still). However, I would venture to say that you would get an improvement in your HP ratings just from the fact that you are taking in colder, more dense air. How this would compare to the higher intake pressures at road speeds I'm not sure.

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you could get a true (pressurized intake) HP reading, the only time you would actually have that power available to you would be when you're up to speed.

I'm not sure if there's a way to make these calculations using data logging through a tuner(XCal2) or not. I'm sure you could log the data but how you would adjust your dyno readings with that info is another question.

I guess I wonder how much that increase in intake pressure actually helps. Good question!

 

I believe you are confusing "speed density" with "mass air" in relationship to how you want to test your vehicle. The inlet air on the new vehicles (97 up I believe) is not measured in speed, but rather in mass. So you can get a true reading on a dyno in a stationary positon verses having the vehicle in motion...

 

You could log the mass air flow (lbs) before and after by rpm. I did an unofficial with my edge and monitored the intake air temp vs the ambient. With my shaker setup, at 50+ the 2 temps were within 1 deg. You would need an xcal2 or an edge to log it. Good luck....

 

I think you are going to find that the MASS AIR meter will respond properly to air density changes but not to forced air flow that could change it's transfer output signal to the PCM and possibly cause difficulties caused by forced nonlinear signaling.
The engine pulling in it's air is quite different than air being forced in.
In nearly all instances even a supercharger that blows thru the air meter is PCM calibrated differently than one that pulls thru the meter first, just for that kind of application to be properly tuned. In neither case is it the same for N/A operation even.
You might get away with it on and 03 or older but the later years are very sensitive about this.
This is why every so often you read about some one putting an aftermarket air intake on an 04 and later and gets a CEL lamp from it.

 

Thanks for all the input guys!
TSD - Yeah I thought about that... even thought about using a 120mph leaf blower connected to the inlet. One of you guys that has easy access to a dyno, try this vs. a normal CAI (AF1, K&N, etc) and let us know what happens. You could take the filter off the CAI and mount the leaf blower to the tube

DIY - See above. Power isn't much use sitting still Anyway, if my lame brain could figure out how to post pics I would be glad to show my set up. tr186driver@yahoo.com The cold air thing was my original intention because of all the "hot" air debate going on under the hood

Marc - you lost me bro... air density changes with temperature... not with speed, right?

gobra - a shaker setup would definitely be a more direct route for the air than what I have. I like my OEM hood. Makes sense that the temps were very close.

Blue - Yeah.. this is kinda what I was getting at. How would I replicate the situation on a dyno so that I have the tuning done for the reasons you mentioned (if they have any effect at all with my set up) So far no CEL!! (keeping my fingers crossed!)

THANKS ALL

 

Hi.

More info for ya:

https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...452&highlight=

Having read all that, IMHO, I believe it may be possible that a 'ram air' system can be tuned for, ( on pre '04's) but only after a LOT of on-road real-world datalogging with a/f's and so forth to ensure safe operation at all loads and conditions - for sure it's gonna be time intensive, and has to be done by someone who knows what he's doing - and it will be costly. Worth it? Don't think so.

Cheers
Grog

 

Two words... Closed Loop... Feedback from the o2 sensors will keep your truck from running lean at part throttle.

At WOT (or Open Loop), the amount of air being fed into the intake is not enough to make your truck run so lean that your engine will be destroyed. If it were, my engine would have been destroyed a long time ago.

You would have to have a serious scoop that was sealed to even BEGIN to get a pressurized intake tract. My shaker setup has enough water drainage holes in it to sink a ship. I would think all ram air kits would have to make these concessions for street driven vehicles. I just dont believe in the LEAN BOOGEYMAN like most do around here....

 

IMHO... i think it's possible to run ram air.... look at all the OEM vehicles that had/have it and drag cars with/without power adders (maybe that's not the same thing?) Anyway, ram air has been around since before fuel injection and O2 sensors. If ram air is such a demon then it's a wonder carb motors ran at all as they did not have the benefit of PCM to make on the fly changes in a/f mixture.

I totally respect Troyer and when I get a tuner it will be from his shop. But, the question still remains.... does a ram air set up alter the a/f from what is attainable while stationary on a dyno vs. highway speeds? How would you test/tune for it? The volant is a good example... what happens if you close the other box inlets... leaving only the ram air inlet?... this would be most similar to what i have.

I wonder about the lean boogeyman too... of course, i haven't blown up either! What makes the '04+ motors supposedly so suseptable to being lean?? Mine is an '06 5.4L

 

Man, there's a lot of mis-information on this............

First - yes, a true "Ram air" intake CAN be tuned for - I do NOT recommend it, but it CAN be done, we have done this a number of times.

The ONLY way to do this properly is to actually operate the vehicle - for example, we've done this a number of times at race tracks, where we can take the vehicle up to it's highest speeds numerous times - and properly datalog *everything* to develop a transfer function. That is the only way you can possibly know just how much additional airflow (positive pressure) - if any - the "ram air" type intake is causing, and thus how to develop a proper transfer function for it.

There was a person who, years ago, tried to do this, and what happened was, in a high-12 second truck, it started off @ 12.0 and by just the end of the 1/4 mile, at only 105 mph, it was running, with that particular setup, well into 14:1 range - easily lean enough to blow up a supercharged engine.

And running it down the 1/4 mile isn't enough - you really need to top out the vehicle in a series of runs - and over the course of time, make numerous datalogs & adjustments to the MAF TF to dial it in as you take the vehicle to higher & higher speeds.

There still, best case, are several problems with this, however - for example, what happens when you run into a headwind?!? Guess what? You have the potential to still run *leaner* than commanded, depending on how much of a headwind, etc. So how do you calibrate for a headwind - you can't, at least, not very well - not unless you're willing to a significant amount of time in a very expensive dyno cell **with a wind tunnel**.

So...CAN it be done - yes - *if* the tuner actually has experience with doing this and really knows what they are doing, it can bone, after a fashion, but it will never be done in a manner that will be accurate for all conditions, just due to the issue of potential headwind/vehicle speed combinations that would exceed anything encountered during developmental testing. You'd have to fudge the upper end to make sure it ran very fat to protect the motor, and I really don't' like doing that, I prefer accuracy.

Soooo...now we get to the real question - which is, SHOULD it be done - nope. There are far easier ways of making reliable power much cheaper and easier.

 

MT Everything you say seems logical and reasonable to me (and I don't even own any of your products, yet ).

THANKS to everyone who chimed in!

So why are the '04 + motors so inclined to this often referred to lean condition? If I have a flex-fuel vehicle would it be less inclined to this lean condition, just by virtue of being E-85 compatible?

 

Mike,
So how does this impact a N/A truck? Was your example of a 12 sec truck a blown application? I just dont see how a "ram air" will add that much more air into your intake . Otherwise, these systems would pick up more than the 5-10 hp that they claim.
Obviously, you have way more experience with this than i do but i would think that the nominal performance gains with N/A ram air kits indicate the minimal change in airflow and thus minimal impact on a/f ratio.

 

Iunderstand what you mean power really isn't much use sitting still! All I was trying to say (somewhat feebly so) is that you wouldn't be creating your full power until you were moving fast enough for the ram air system to actually be adding some pressure to the intake.

MT, what's your opinion on the whole air intake debate? As an experienced tuner on these trucks would you recommend a short ram style intake which pulls air from inside the engine compartment, or a CAI that pulls cooler air from somewhere outside the engine compartment? I'd really value your opinion on this matter, as you seem to be the authority on tuning these trucks. One of these days I'll save enough money to let you have your way with mine! --DIYM

 

Hi Guys,

This post unfortunately has to be short due to the # limitation on these boards...

First - for I think it was Gobra? - perhaps you need to re-read my post,as it makes it clear that I am NOT a fan of doing any kind of true "ram air" intake type kit, meaning where you are actually achieving positive air pressure at the face of the MAF meter, or into the newer tonsil MAF sensor - whether it's N/A or FI doesn't matter, I just don't like it, for the reasons I posted above.

Now for the other questions, I would suggest using the SEARCH feature to review some of my older posts (which go back anywhere from a few months to several years) where we did painstaking testing of actual IAT's compared to ambient outside and in the driver's inner fender where the stock intake and many others take the air, as well as several kits using scoops, etc - in short, what we found is that no matter what type of system you use, below a threshold speed of about 30-35 mph, you are going into heat soak - period. By that I simply mean that IAT's actually entering the engine will start to creep above ambient. Now above that speed, the IAT's, with a good intake kit, will drop to within a coupla-few degrees of ambient. So this is a lower-speed issue that we have seen nothing short of spraying really do anything about, despite all the various mfg.'s claims.

This whole myth of breathing "hot underhood air" is just that - a myth - we clearly found that in our data. The air filter elements on virtually all intake kits in the aftermarket are WELL away from direct heat rise from the motor, exhaust manifolds, etc. So it really doesn't matter even if a heat shield is used in most cases, or whether it's sealed to the hood, etc. - that is primarily marketing. The other thing is that the claims that the typical black phenolic-resin based plastic intake kits provided colder IAT's was also false. The only material we found deleterious to IAT's was aluminum as it took on heat quicker and shed it slower. See, this thought pattern really dates back to the days of carburetors, when the air filter element was right on top of the engine - but that does not happen with intake kits today, they virtually all have the filter element well away from any direct heat rise from the motor - so then it simply becomes a matter of underhood air circulation, and thus at what point do you hit the threshold of enough air circulation under the hood to overcome the natural heat soak of low speed/stationary - and we do not see scoops, etc making any significant change to that, especially in sumer with hot pavement temps! Not when you actually do proper IAT datalogging & true controlled testing of this - which is not easy to do - heck, it took us the better part of 2 years to really get data I considered to be good, as we had to duplicate ambient temps & humidity levels, etc., so it was quite a challenge.

Sooo - where does this all leave us? I prefer no scoops, etc., just use the AF1's aircraft grade T304 S/S that is mirror polished on the outside ONLY, as that is what is showing us the best power gains and lowest overall IAT's - yes, even though it is "metal." It's a matter of heat rejection/shedding in the real world, not some lab materials analysis - at least, that is what our data showed us, and why several intake manufacturers have had us help them do their kit design, and also why a few of them absolute hate us, too.

For example, we tested the stock intake and the AF1 on a 2004 5.4 3V idling in summer **for an hour with hood down** with both intakes - and the AF1 gave us 6-8 degrees colder IAT's - and no, I'm not saying that all others are "bad" kits, that was just the data we got.

Now as always, each person needs to do whatever makes them happiest - just please don't attempt any *true* ram air on any EFI motor, is my suggestion - again, meaning a setup that actually achieves positive air pressure to the face of the MAF meter/sensor - if you want to run a scoop to a box with a filter element that is BEFORE the MAF sensing, that's up to you - that is NOT ram air, though some mfg's call it that.

I hope that brief info helps gentlemen.............