Location: Among javelinas and scorpions near Tucson, AZ
Vehicle: 2005 Ford F150
Posts: 3,134
I'm going to say something here that is prompted by the "tone" of some of the posters in this thread. Unless the tuner has your truck in his possession and can test and adjust the tune himself on it, the tune is going to be a bit of an experiment. It may well take two or three tries to get it right. Even if the tuner creates a tune for two "identical" trucks (same PCM hex code, same equipment, and so on) the results are going to be different due to manufacturing tolerance differences, and the environment where the truck is operated.
From everything I've heard from "reliable" sources, Justin Starkey is a "stand up" guy. But you have to work WITH your tuner if you want a good outcome. If you're not prepared to work with guys like Justin, Mike Troyer and Bill Cohron, then you are NOT going to get the results you want.
Complaining about a tune on the forum is not working with the tuner. It's fine to post facts and to ask for opinions, but you have to remember those opinions might be worth exactly what you paid for them.
Let me add this. If you are cobbling parts, make sure of what you have and communicate it to the tuner. MAFs come in all shapes and sizes and if you don't know what you have, the tuner doesn't know what transfer function your PCM needs to interpret data from the MAF. There are also an abundance of aftermarket MAF, some with know transfer functions. There are a number of Ford MAFs as well. An 80mm Lightning MAF is not the same as an 80mm truck MAF, but they both have 80mm housings.
Prior to the 3v engines, Ford used a MAF sensor in a known housing. Because the sensor fits in the intake tube, going from the non-stock tube is going to change air flow around the sensor and provide a different reading than what your calibration is programmed. If it's extreme enough, adaptive controls can't compensate for it. Developing a transfer function from scratch is not easy work. It takes a good bit of datalogging and there is only so much you can do without wideband input as part of that datalog. Input from the stock 02 sensors will only get you so far.
I guess the point is, it's not as easy as everyone thinks it is. Tuner's on the other hand are usually too busy to follow up on the stuff you leave out. You know the old anology about ASS-U-ME. Intake info is way more important than things on the exhaust side.
Let me be clear on why I started this thread. I wanted to get some advise from some of the people that have had some experiance with this type of thing so that I felt better about not blowing the motor up. I did not start this thread to complain. I do not expect Justin to get it right on the 1st try from 3000 miles away. I get updated datalogs to Justing within 4-5 hrs of recieving them so I am working with him as fast and as much needed to get it right.
I understand that Justin is busy like every other tuner out there but I need to drive the truck everyday and just wanted to make sure it was "safe" until I heard from him. Justin has been a stand up guy or else he would not be working with me to get it right and I thank him for that.
__________________ 2001 5.4 Screw 4x4,6 inch trailmaster lift,Chickenears intake,Lightning grill and headlights,Autometer Tranny temp gauge,boost gauge Wideband A/F,Kanamari ram air hood,lightning motor swap,xcal3 tuned by Justin @VMP.
Engine goes into open loop just fine, you can see this by looking at the STFT. When open loop is entered the commanded lambda set in the tune; it is shown in the STFT column as 0.7890625, converted to AFR (14.64*0.7890625)=11.55. Your average actual AFR while at full throttle is ~11.45. AFR looks good to me.
Engine goes into open loop just fine, you can see this by looking at the STFT. When open loop is entered the commanded lambda set in the tune; it is shown in the STFT column as 0.7890625, converted to AFR (14.64*0.7890625)=11.55. Your average actual AFR while at full throttle is ~11.45. AFR looks good to me.
What is the title of the datalog you are viewing? The one I have is rolling1k-5k.csv.
I'm going to say something here that is prompted by the "tone" of some of the posters in this thread. Unless the tuner has your truck in his possession and can test and adjust the tune himself on it, the tune is going to be a bit of an experiment. It may well take two or three tries to get it right. Even if the tuner creates a tune for two "identical" trucks (same PCM hex code, same equipment, and so on) the results are going to be different due to manufacturing tolerance differences, and the environment where the truck is operated.
From everything I've heard from "reliable" sources, Justin Starkey is a "stand up" guy. But you have to work WITH your tuner if you want a good outcome. If you're not prepared to work with guys like Justin, Mike Troyer and Bill Cohron, then you are NOT going to get the results you want.
Complaining about a tune on the forum is not working with the tuner. It's fine to post facts and to ask for opinions, but you have to remember those opinions might be worth exactly what you paid for them.
Justin has send me update tune to fix issue I had. The best thing to do when you have a problem is to talk to the tuner to work out problems. Justin has great customer service.
__________________
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Ok so I think we have discovered the problem... The DS bank has a good WOT a/f ratio of around 11-11.5 but I switched the sensor to the PS bank and its reading 15-16.5 lean!
Now my question is can a bad o2 sensor do this or should I look at a bad injector or something else? Any help would be great! Thanks Dave....
__________________ 2001 5.4 Screw 4x4,6 inch trailmaster lift,Chickenears intake,Lightning grill and headlights,Autometer Tranny temp gauge,boost gauge Wideband A/F,Kanamari ram air hood,lightning motor swap,xcal3 tuned by Justin @VMP.
Well, at least what i suspected was verified by moving the WBO2.
I would look at ignition issues first, as that could show up as lean if there is a misfire. Plugs and swap coils side to side. Then possibly look at injectors.
I'm going to say something here that is prompted by the "tone" of some of the posters in this thread. Unless the tuner has your truck in his possession and can test and adjust the tune himself on it, the tune is going to be a bit of an experiment. It may well take two or three tries to get it right. Even if the tuner creates a tune for two "identical" trucks (same PCM hex code, same equipment, and so on) the results are going to be different due to manufacturing tolerance differences, and the environment where the truck is operated.
From everything I've heard from "reliable" sources, Justin Starkey is a "stand up" guy. But you have to work WITH your tuner if you want a good outcome. If you're not prepared to work with guys like Justin, Mike Troyer and Bill Cohron, then you are NOT going to get the results you want.
Complaining about a tune on the forum is not working with the tuner. It's fine to post facts and to ask for opinions, but you have to remember those opinions might be worth exactly what you paid for them.
- Jack
well i was told that if my tune still felt lean to me(me having no way at the time to test a/f) to just richen it through the tuner....i sent plenty of datalogs, and was told i was wrong when i said that it "sounded lean" and that the a/f would not effect the sound, new tune with more fuel the sound went away till i hit higher rpms, added more fuel in another tune from him and didnt make sound till even higher rpm and then was told to just tune it myself, now no sound after adding %8 more fuel on wot from his i beleve third tune he sent me
well i was told that if my tune still felt lean to me(me having no way at the time to test a/f) to just richen it through the tuner....i sent plenty of datalogs, and was told i was wrong when i said that it "sounded lean" and that the a/f would not effect the sound, new tune with more fuel the sound went away till i hit higher rpms, added more fuel in another tune from him and didnt make sound till even higher rpm and then was told to just tune it myself, now no sound after adding %8 more fuel on wot from his i beleve third tune he sent me
You have a lot to learn, and that is okay, I still learn new stuff every day. There is no such thing as sounding lean, there is such a thing as hearing pinging, which is what you may have been trying to explain but may not have known the words to do so. (which is not harmful short term to an NA engine, blown is a different story). Spark curves are pretty well known, so adding fuel is a good way to address it without having any DATA. Without having a wideband or having the truck in front of them no tuner is going to know exactly what is going on, so trial and error is the next best method, and for an NA engine, there is nothing to worry about hurting.
...MAFs come in all shapes and sizes and if you don't know what you have, the tuner doesn't know what transfer function your PCM needs to interpret data from the MAF. There are also an abundance of aftermarket MAF, some with know transfer functions. There are a number of Ford MAFs as well. An 80mm Lightning MAF is not the same as an 80mm truck MAF, but they both have 80mm housings.
Prior to the 3v engines, Ford used a MAF sensor in a known housing. Because the sensor fits in the intake tube, going from the non-stock tube is going to change air flow around the sensor and provide a different reading than what your calibration is programmed. If it's extreme enough, adaptive controls can't compensate for it. Developing a transfer function from scratch is not easy work. It takes a good bit of datalogging and there is only so much you can do without wideband input as part of that datalog. Input from the stock 02 sensors will only get you so far.
I guess the point is, it's not as easy as everyone thinks it is. Tuner's on the other hand are usually too busy to follow up on the stuff you leave out. You know the old anology about ASS-U-ME. Intake info is way more important than things on the exhaust side.
This poster is very wise and has some good insight into what is going on.
In the case of the old trucks, different air filters, different elbows, anything before, after, or in the maf will change how it reads (yes if you put a tornado in your intake tube it messes up the maf signal, just ask my friend at the ford dealer).
Even with the newer trucks, many of the aftermarket intakes are rotomolded from plastic, a very inexpensive manufacturing method that can produce very thin and flexible tubes, which can have as much as 10% variance from one to the next.
Thanks Justin left you a message today but dont worry about it (since I see your comment here) I will swap to new plugs and coils first tomorrow then swap injectors. Thank god I have a cobra with extra parts all over the garage!
__________________ 2001 5.4 Screw 4x4,6 inch trailmaster lift,Chickenears intake,Lightning grill and headlights,Autometer Tranny temp gauge,boost gauge Wideband A/F,Kanamari ram air hood,lightning motor swap,xcal3 tuned by Justin @VMP.
well i was told that if my tune still felt lean to me(me having no way at the time to test a/f) to just richen it through the tuner....i sent plenty of datalogs, and was told i was wrong when i said that it "sounded lean" and that the a/f would not effect the sound, new tune with more fuel the sound went away till i hit higher rpms, added more fuel in another tune from him and didnt make sound till even higher rpm and then was told to just tune it myself, now no sound after adding %8 more fuel on wot from his i beleve third tune he sent me
Did you tell him about all of your mods? It sounds like you had something that would effect fuel, maybe a TB or something. Irregardless, why don't you just make your own thread instead of ruining this one?
Last edited by FordRacer2005; 10-06-2009 at 12:44 AM.
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2001 5.4 Screw 4x4,6 inch trailmaster lift,Chickenears intake,Lightning grill and headlights,Autometer Tranny temp gauge,boost gauge Wideband A/F,Kanamari ram air hood,lightning motor swap,xcal3 tuned by Justin @VMP.
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