Ordered a #1715 programmer for my truck since it has the ability to tune with 87 octane. Many months ago Mike told me a 5-8hp gain if possible, but Superchip's web site says no hp/torque increase with 87 octane tuning!
Hypertech shows dyno readings with a gain of hp/torque on 87 octane with it's programmer, but the last hypertech I ran gave a rough idle/stumbling at low rpm's (was a '95 F150, 5.8L). Plus, I never noticed a gain in performance. The only gain I've ever noticed was in the wife's '99 Taurus 24v, with a superchip.

Please share some info Mike, I'm putting the programmer on hold until you share some wisdom on the subject.

Thanks in advance.

Hoseclamp.

ps- almost forgot. I bought the wife a '03 Windstar Limited (ok ppl, stop laughing), is there a chip availiable for the windstar? A custom maybe?

Once again, thanks.

 

Hi hoseclamp,

That screen name always cracks me up, it just strikes my funny bone for some reason - nice to see you drop by again.

Sounds like you haven't read any of the posts here from people posting their results on the 87 octane tuning - there are plenty of them, and they clearly indicate positive results.

That isn't shown or said on their web site in the product info listed for the 1715. I think the actual reality is what you talking about is something you saw in an old FAQ on their site, where it says in answer to one question: "While some Superchips products give you the choice of running 87 or 91-93 octane fuel, only the use of 91- 93 octane fuel will increase the Horsepower and Torque output."

That is old and outdated information from the years when they would not offer 87 octane tuning at all (I'll explain why further below), and is not accurate - we've tested the 87 octane tunes for years, and it does indeed deliver the power gains we've stated - that's how we *got* those numbers, we don't just lie and make them up.

The reality is that as long as you use a good quality fuel, you'll generally see about an 8 HP gain in 4.6's & 5.4's from the 87 octane Superchips tuning - just as we've told everyone here for years.

Traditionally, Superchips hasn't like tuning for 87 octane, and I don't like it either, even though we are one of the reasons that 87 octane tuning is available in the Micro Tuner. The reality is that most people running 87 octane are buying the cheapest gas they can find without consideration for anything else - the energy content, detergent additives or even bothering to accurate track the actual mpg results. Well, that is the second-worst thing you can do to your engine (and the vehicle's entire fuel delivery system) - second only to not changing the oil.

Cheap fuels generally have a lower BTU content, fewer and lower quality detergent additives, etc., etc. They deliver less performance as they won't support the same conditions in the combustion chamber, and deliver less fuel mileage - both due to the lower energy content, the number of BTU's per gallon. And in a worst-case scenario, depending on the dyno & testing methods and conditions, and just how bad the fuel is, it is possible to see little to no sustainable gain on 87 octane in such a worst-case scenario.

So for any number of reasons, Superchips doesn't like tuning on low-grade fuel, as it goes against the basic precepts of performance tuning. They do it now due in part to us here at Troyer Performance - we are America's oldest Superchips distributor and one of the largest, and we have worked closely with Superchips for as long as they've been in existence. We asked them to make the original 1715 Micro Tuner multi-octane capable, to give people more flexibility - that got added with the upgraded 1715 that has more internal memory capacity (so it can hold more programs) when it was released last month. And for years before the Micro Tuner even existed, here at Troyer Performance we've had special Superchips programs for use on 87 octane available in the traditional Superchip modules for those few who wanted it, something Superchips would not even list on their web site or advertise anywhere for a long time, simply because the power gains are much smaller than with premium. Also (and this is a biggie), years ago a magazine did a "test" that was deliberately and badly slanted - they ordered Superchips for 87 octane, and then "tested" them against other products that required premium gas - that's about as slanted as you can get, and they still made almost as much power as the other products for premium gas. And as you can probably imagine, that situation frosted Superchips' collective cojones pretty bad - so badly that they stopped offering *any* tuning for 87 octane years & years ago, aside from the programs we had them do specifically for us - until now with the multi-octane version of the Micro Tuner, in this case the new 1715 released on September 15th 2003.

The bottom line is, on the 87 octane tune (assuming we have a good quality 87 octane gas in the tank and not just the cheapest 87 available) in the new 1715 in the 4.6 or the 5.4 V8's - we see a range from roughly as low as 5 hp at the rear wheels on rare occasion in a 4.6 to the more normal 7.5-8.5 HP at the rear wheels in either the 4.6 or the 5.4. I'd call it 8 hp, in round numbers. So yes, as long as you're using good fuel you *will* get some power gain on 87 octane - but it won't be nearly what you get with the Micro Tuner's programs for premium fuel.

Nor would I ever even *think* about trying to justify performance tuning for 87 octane based on getting a "significant" raw peak power gain - that's a waste of time & won't happen. You'll see about 8.5 HP at most, about 8 HP on average. Use the best quality 87 octane fuels available and you'll get about an 8 hp gain from the Micro Tuner's 87 octane tune. Steer clear of all off-brands, no-names, etc., and no Exxon, either - they're all low energy.

With regard to the Windstar, that's actually a *very* nice vehicle you have there, and for some time now Ford has it aggressively priced. I think you made a *very* good move in picking it up & I hope you & your family enjoy it for many years. That little 3.8 V6 puts out 200 HP stock, and we can pick up a nice power gain on them from the Superchip - about 16 HP is what we see on the 200 HP 3.8 V6 motors - on premium gas, of course.

And no, before anyone even asks, I don't know what power gains (if any) are possible on 87 octane in a 3.8 Windstar, we've never tested that and never will, as the Windstar gets modified for more performance by it's owners very rarely due to the type of vehicle it is and what they are usually bought & used for. However, we can make an 87 octane tune available (for vehicles that only require 87 octane from the factory) if someone wants an 87 octane tune in a Superchip for that vehicle - the only thing that matters is whatever makes the vehicle owner happy, so if you want it, we can do it!

To provide a Superchip for that Windstar we'll need to know the computer code of your Windstar (give us a call & we'll tell you how to find it), but yes, to answer your question, we can provide a Superchip for that vehicle too, as long as we have it's code and it's an EEC-V PCM. Superchips has been offering tuning for the Windstar (and just about every other FoMoCo vehicle) for as long as it's been around in it's various forms & all it's different engines over the years.

One last point, just in case you may not be aware of this - you aren't going to spend any significant amount of *additional* money to run the Superchips tuning on premium gas in either of those vehicles - most people with F-150's don't spend more than another $100 a year for gas by using the Superchips tuning on premium gas as compared to running on the stock factory program on 87, as the mpg comes up with the Superchips tuning as a by-product of the increased timing on part-throttle - especially when cruising and not using heavy throttle. The absolute worst-case scenario in an F-150, if you literally drove it like a race car all the time, is another $100 per each 10,000 miles driven. Realistically, even that is nothing - for anyone that can afford to buy a new Ford truck or van it's a drop in the bucket.

I mention this because many people don't bother checking out other people's real-world results (this section has tons of posts like that in the various threads) - they just assume that because premium costs an average of 20 cents per gallon more than 87, that they're somehow going to be spending a lot more money for gas - a reasonable assumption just looking at the gas pump - but that is not the case in reality. This is just FYI in case you may not be aware.......

Thanks for your post, enjoy your weekend & give us a call to go over any of this if you like!

 

Thanks for the info Mike!

I have a dual fuel Superchip tuner arriving tomorrow for my truck. My resistance to run premium is based on the fact I get free 87 octane gas from work. My '03 super duty is a company truck, which all maintenance/fuel is of no cost to me. Running premium would mean buying fuel for my truck, which I haven't done for almost 6 years now. You bet that saves a bunch!
The wife's windstar doesn't get free fuel, so running premium isn't a problem whatsoever.
The fuel from work comes from a neighboring town which has one refinery. All the local fuel, Cheveron, Esso, Co-op, Shell, Petro Canada, all get fuel from the same place. I think the only difference would be the additives they use in thier own product. Strange, but true.
I've ran the 87 Esso on a jet chip in my old '97 F150 4.6L, which required 89. It didn't ping/knock, so the fuel must be good quality.

The windstar, doesn't need the governor removed. I do want increased torque/hp, quicker shifts with NO floating in/out of lockup. I hate that. I don't know if a shift point at a higher rpm would be a good idea. Redline is at 5,500rpm, I know it shifts over 5,000rpm now.
Anyways, I'll dig for the code, I'm pretty sure I know where it is.
The chip will compliment the custom open K&N intake I built, and soon a custom stainless dual exhaust.

Thanks, will talk soon!!!!

Hoseclamp.

 

Hi hoseclamp,

Ahh, so you've already got your Micro Tuner on the way - excellent, I hope you enjoy it!

And yes, if I were getting *free* 87 octane for a daily driver, that is a compelling appeal, to be sure - who wouldn't want free gas?? You're in good shape for that with Micro Tuner's 87 octane program, it will get you roughly about an 8 HP gain on decent fuel. And you'll still be getting other performance benefits - optimization of the various transitional delays & retards, etc., that slow down the powertrain's general response time - that is a nice improvement to overall driveability.

Over the past few years, we have had a total of maybe a dozen or so individuals we dealt with from time to time who were getting free 87 octane gas for their daily driver's from their employer - if memory serves, for about half of the guys we've dealt with in a similar situation, they were buying their gas anywhere & being reimbursed - they weren't pumping from a mandated company supply of some kind. So what a few of them did was to go ahead and buy premium, and just pay for the *difference* themselves - now with that method, they paid the *entire* 20 cent per gallon cost delta between 87 & premium, whereas when you're already paying for the fuel, the actual *additional* fuel cost to run on premium with the Superchips tuning is less, due to the small gains in mpg. Anyway, they ended up going from free 87 octane to getting premium for an average of 20 cents per gallon - so for the ones that felt the added performance was worth it to them, it worked out very nicely as they still got unbelievably cheap premium gas. Of course, most of them just stuck with the free 87 octane, but a few did go the other route & it worked out for what they wanted.

From the content of your post, looks like you're up in Canada - up there in Canada, we have heard from some other people, from time to time, who said that they were getting good results from their local Esso fuel - we have indeed heard that before, so perhaps I should clarify - we recommend not using Exxon specifically here in *America* - overseas, Europe and even Canada we really can't speak intelligently to it's quality. Here in the US, what we see is that it's a clean fuel (and you wouldn't believe just how clean Exxon's refineries & tank farms in the US are in general - I've been in probably most of them that existed as of the mid-80's), but it's energy content is low - in many cases with higher-performance configurations we've seen detonation on Exxon where many other fuels in the same area gave no such problems. Now running on the stock factory program on a stock vehicle using Exxon 87, I would not expect any detonation, as of course these vehicles have knock sensors - so they generally just get lower mpg. In modified vehicles that require the best fuels, they can't use Exxon in many areas here in the US - and there may be a few areas in which it does OK - but overall, for the past few years since they went reformulated year-round, we've seen that it's just not doing the job in high-performance applications & thats where we have problems with detonation - again, in stock vehicles it's fine, you just see a lower mpg. And of course virtually all computer controlled gas-engine vehicles have active knock sensor systems (Ford's factory-supercharged 4.6 Cobra & 5.4 Lightning & Harley being rare exceptions), so as long as any detonation is within the system's effective compensation range, you won't hear audible detonation as ht knock retard is taking care of it.


On the Windstar, sure, we can leave the TS limiter intact on the Windstar if you like, that's not a problem. The complaint you have is common, about it not staying locked up in Overdrive - the part-throttle upshift & downshift points are based on vehicle speed, load & throttle position, and what actually helps these vehicles the most in terms of their ability to say in Overdrive better is the increased torque available on part-throttle from the Superchips tuning - this is a good example of why part-throttle tuning is *so* critical. The increased torque on part-throttle helps it to stay locked up & in Overdrive better, we know exactly what you're talking about there. that is a common complaint in the F-150's & Expeditions, too. You will see an improvement in that aspect.

Enjoy your weekend & talk to you soon!

 

Superchips,

I read the lower post and understand you reason. I have used Exxon for years but mostly because it is on my way home and I have one of those sweet little speedpass things. Anyway, I use Exxon mostly as a matter of convienance. I have never had any fuel system problems with the Exxon fuel but IF I could get better performance with another brand of fuel. Which major oil co would you recommend and which ones should I stay away from?

 

Well, bad news.
The 1715 tuner they sent was the premium fuel tuner only. Was made Jan/03 so I knew as soon as I saw it. Phoned superchip directly, found out any 1715 with a date of 9-15-03 and newer is the dual fuel tuner. Local dealer said suppier has had new ones on back-order for quite a while, no date on arrival. The had the Hypertech in stock, took that instead. Hopefully it works out.

 

Hi 98,

You're in excellent shape for fuels since you're here in Virginia - here's the order of my preference here in VA.........

1.) Sunoco's Ultra 94 - our local Sunoco didn't have it, they have only 93, but it's a *great* 93 octane pump premium. So Sunoco's Ultra 94 1st, their 93 octane 2nd.

2.) Citgo - believe it or not, here in most of the East, and all over the Mid-Atlantic, Citgo does a fine job - good BTU content & a fairly clean fuel, it's on both BMW & Ford "good gas" lists.

3.) Shell - their 93 octane premium seems to work well.

4.) Texaco/Chevron - seem to be roughly about the same since the buyout - good clean fuels.

That should give you plenty of choices.

Exxon is a very clean fuel - they do a fine job there. It's the energy content - best we can tell, the BTU content is just too low - generally not better than some of the off-brands in that regard. Thus we advise avoiding Exxon in any modified engine that needs good fuel - actually I have told people to avoid Exxon unless your other choice is walking, but that is perhaps a bit too harsh, as Exxon can be fine for stock to mildly modified vehicles, in those applications it's just going to give a bit lower fuel mileage. But in a modified motor that needs good joy juice, like even a stock Lightning, avoid Exxon. And I really hate saying that, as I actually like some things about that company - their refineries & tank farms are, generally speaking, *very* clean and safe - they are incredibly strict about safety procedures, etc. in my experience (which was years ago, admittedly).

Anyway, that's enough info so you have a good selection of great gasolines there in Tidewater. Good luck!

 

Hi Hoseclamp,

I'm glad to hear your vendor is working with you on this, excellent!

I was however, sorry to hear that you were told that about new "new" 1715's, as they aren't on backorder. If you purchased that Micro Tuner anytime from September 15th on, there is no valid reason for you not getting the new unit unless you agreed to taking the previous generation 1715 in advance - that's just someone unloading older inventory at your expense. A Micro Tuner with a production date back in January, while certainly a perfectly fine unit & will work well, is not current and has been sitting on someone's shelves for 9 months as of October, as the manufacturer makes them every week, constantly - and the new 1715's came out on September 15th.

Overall it sounds like your vendor is working with you & trying to make you happy by taking back the older Micro Tuner and replacing it with the Hypertech - perhaps they were just given some bad info about the new 1715 MT's availability from their supplier, that is possible. At any rate, best of luck with the Hypertech unit & we hope you enjoy it!

Have fun,

 

A "backorder" could be a simple way to say "This is our stock, we'll have new ones when these sell out". The wholesaler had no idea there's a dual-fuel programmer produced by Superchip. With no definite time frame to work by, and since I prefer Superchip, I got a good deal on the Hypertech. I programmed it already, and will be driving roughly 150 miles this evening. Was very simple to program, straight forward. I'm running the 87 octane programming, 106mph limiter (from 98mph stock), firmer shifts, raised rev limiter and shift points by 300rpm across the board. Will see how it works. Doesn't require removing the fuel pump fuse so it may be quicker to change/modify programming than the Superchip tuner.
I'm kind of dissappointed I didn't get the Superchip tuner, but we'll see. The last Hypertech chip I had wasn't too impressive, but that was 8 years ago.

Will give an update after some miles on it!

Thanks for the help and support, eh!

 

Hi HC,

>>>A "backorder" could be a simple way to say "This is our stock, we'll have new ones when these sell out". <<<

You're absolutely right - that is how some companies handle those kinds of situations. We don't, as we feel that is simply wrong and less than candid to put it politely, but there are many companies that do, very true. With us, on the rare occasion something actually sits here still new in the box and unsold for long enough to be out of date, we stock balance it back to the manufacturer & replace with the current product, so our customers get only current generation product.

The bottom line is your vendor worked with you to provide a solution that was acceptable to you - and that's all that matters, making you happy with your purchase.

So it sounds like all's well that ends well, glad to hear it!

 

Hey Mike... how's BP gas? It's mostly what we have around here in Danville. Only that and off-brands...

 

Hi Flea,

Well, traditionally BP has been dirty & low energy - and traditionally Amoco has been just the opposite - clean & high BTU content.

However, since British Petroleum bought out Amoco, it's really up in the air- sometimes you get a good fuel, and sometimes you don't. The last time I tried BP/Amoco 93 octane premium, which was in the Tidewater area of Virginia, it was terrible & caused my Lightning to detonate badly - had to drain the tank & refill.

In your area, I just don't know how it is, it could be good or it may not be - but we are now generally telling people to avoid the BP/Amoco stations due to the inconsistency in it's apparent quality & the problems that we & other customers of ours have had with it since the merger of BP & Amoco. As long as you aren't getting detonation with it you can use it, it should be a clean enough fuel, but it just isn't a fuel we generally recommend anymore.

Here in the eastern US, which includes KY, the better fuels are generally Sunoco, Citgo, Shell, & Chevron/Texaco.

Good luck!

 

Hey Hoseclamp,

Sorry to hear you didn't get the new tuner and had to settle for the Hypertech. You may notice most of us on this site deal with Troyer Performance for several reasons:

1] Mike knows what he's talking about and has been in the businness for eons.

2] He stocks the newest and best performance items which he's tested for our vehicles.

3] He is very honest and will tell you things straight even if it costs him a sale. And finally,

4] He and Anita have fantastic customer service!!

No, Mike isn't paying me to write this. No, he isn't sending me free performance items for cheerleading his company. I just know when I'm dealing with a WINNER!!

Good luck with your rides.

 

I called tech support at Superchips last week and talked to them about the programmer and the 87 octane program.

The tech there told me that the 87 octane program didn't change the HP at all. He said it only firmed up the shifts and modified the shift points.

Jim