Mike __ if you got time for something like this
#1
10-15-2005, 10:00 AM
Mike __ if you got time for something like this
Fact or fiction about these plugs breaking off easily from carbon build up
Mike I know this has nothing to do with “Chips & Programming” but your input on this would be invaluable to many
Thanks
https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...4&page=1&pp=15
Mike I know this has nothing to do with “Chips & Programming” but your input on this would be invaluable to many
Thanks
Originally Posted by tschaid
Nobody really answered my question. Apparently, I have run into something that few other 2004 + F150 truck owners have faced. Sure, the 97 - 03 trucks are pain to change plugs; but, they are nowhere near as difficult as the changing plugs in the 85 and 95 T-Birds that I owned.
My question was somewhat rhetorical. Yesterday, I got my F-150 back from the dealer. I have 68,000 miles on an 04 Lariat built in June, 2003.
To change the plugs, the heads had to be removed.
Here's why. The new plug design (Autolite brags about this on their web site) includes a metal sleeve that extends approximately 1 inch beyond the threads into the head. The sleeve is pressed into the threaded part of the plug and covers the porcelain and electrode. This sleeve gets loaded with carbon as the miles pile up on the truck. It is not too difficult to get a wrench on these plugs; but, we were 2 for 2 in breaking them off inside the plug well. And, the Ford Mechanic was 6 for 6 in breaking the remainder off. Ford lists the new plugs at $17.00 each. Napa sells the Autolite equivalent for $12 - $13 each.
To change 8 plugs in my truck cost nearly $1700 total. This would have paid for the taller gears that I want.
From this point forward, we will perform regular maintenance at 10K mile intervals of pulling the plugs, cleaning them, and put them back in the truck. This may help; but, the carbon in the plug wells beyond the threads make this one hell of a poor design.
This is why I posted the question. To see if anyone else had experienced the same or similar issue. If you have more than 30K miles.... I am curious.
Schaid
2004 F-150 Lariat (June, 2003 Build Date) 68K Miles
35" Pro Comp XTerrain
3" Skyjacker Lift with Rear Shocks
Airaid Intake
Superchips Programmer
Magnaflow SIDO Exhaust
Dual Electric Fans
Putco Spidre Web Grill
My question was somewhat rhetorical. Yesterday, I got my F-150 back from the dealer. I have 68,000 miles on an 04 Lariat built in June, 2003.
To change the plugs, the heads had to be removed.
Here's why. The new plug design (Autolite brags about this on their web site) includes a metal sleeve that extends approximately 1 inch beyond the threads into the head. The sleeve is pressed into the threaded part of the plug and covers the porcelain and electrode. This sleeve gets loaded with carbon as the miles pile up on the truck. It is not too difficult to get a wrench on these plugs; but, we were 2 for 2 in breaking them off inside the plug well. And, the Ford Mechanic was 6 for 6 in breaking the remainder off. Ford lists the new plugs at $17.00 each. Napa sells the Autolite equivalent for $12 - $13 each.
To change 8 plugs in my truck cost nearly $1700 total. This would have paid for the taller gears that I want.
From this point forward, we will perform regular maintenance at 10K mile intervals of pulling the plugs, cleaning them, and put them back in the truck. This may help; but, the carbon in the plug wells beyond the threads make this one hell of a poor design.
This is why I posted the question. To see if anyone else had experienced the same or similar issue. If you have more than 30K miles.... I am curious.
Schaid
2004 F-150 Lariat (June, 2003 Build Date) 68K Miles
35" Pro Comp XTerrain
3" Skyjacker Lift with Rear Shocks
Airaid Intake
Superchips Programmer
Magnaflow SIDO Exhaust
Dual Electric Fans
Putco Spidre Web Grill
Last edited by jpdadeo; 10-17-2005 at 03:33 PM.
#4
10-18-2005, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by F150 Duke
Holy Cow!!! I hope that is fiction.
I wuz wondering also why the factory warranty doesn't cover this, because if this is the first time the plugs were removed, then the root cause could be the factory plug-install robots had a real bad day when they put those in... over-torquing the way they have been known to do. I dunno.. is that likely?
Confused as usual, as is my prerogative.
JP - I hope this doesn't set a precedent - I can see a whole bunch of guys piling in here with other non-tuning related questions, simply because THE MAN is so knowledgable.
I guess if Mike had the time, he could set up a 'Mike's General Troubleshooting and Recipes' Forum
. Sort of the 'Dr.Phil for MotorHeads' - then you guys queued up for tunes would prolly really go berserk ... Cheers
Grog
Last edited by MGDfan; 10-18-2005 at 11:54 AM.
#5
10-18-2005, 11:59 AM
#6
10-18-2005, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by jpdadeo
I hear ya Grog but who else would have the insight Mike has and IMO this is a BIG question on many minds. If he doesn’t chime in, I fully understand why though.
I had a look at the orginal post/thread and I need to revise my earlier guess - it's breakage below the threads that's the issue, it's not likely to be a plug torque issue.
Wow. You are right - this could be serious if it's pervasive.
As for the $1700 charge- that's still crappola, as Mike would say - the Dealer broke 6 of them.
You gonna try yours?
Cheers
Grog
#7
10-18-2005, 01:46 PM
We could have a blast with that....."Mike, why does my girl keep breaking up with me cause I drive a red truck?" We would probably never hear from Mr Troyer again! 
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#8
10-18-2005, 02:37 PM
#9
10-19-2005, 01:23 AM
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#10
10-19-2005, 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by F150 Duke
From the other threads it sounds like Mike has a lot on his plate. Maybe this one should be an email or phone question.
I agree, don't try it until it's neccessary. No need to incurr an unneccessary cost now.
I agree, don't try it until it's neccessary. No need to incurr an unneccessary cost now.
Just me, the endless inveterate tinkerer, thinking out loud
Dr. Phil - please chime in next commercial break
Cheers
Grog
Carbon all over cave walls!
#11
10-19-2005, 07:37 AM
I have to admit I’m very curious but I’m waiting to see what happens with Quintin. He’s got about 25 – 26k or so and he’s in the process of using the Ford “upgraded plugs” to replace his existing ones. He said he pulled two out to take a look-see and they appeared to have rust on them around the sleeve, not carbon. He also said they were creaking and were very tight for the first two turns of removal. It don’t sound good, that’s for sure
https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...01#post1869401
https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...01#post1869401
#12
10-19-2005, 08:22 AM
Originally Posted by jpdadeo
I have to admit I’m very curious but I’m waiting to see what happens with Quintin. He’s got about 25 – 26k or so and he’s in the process of using the Ford “upgraded plugs” to replace his existing ones. He said he pulled two out to take a look-see and they appeared to have rust on them around the sleeve, not carbon. He also said they were creaking and were very tight for the first two turns of removal. It don’t sound good, that’s for sure
https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...01#post1869401
https://www.f150online.com/forums/sh...01#post1869401
Cheers
Grog
Grog anodize cave!
#13
10-19-2005, 11:05 AM
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#14
10-19-2005, 04:40 PM
Former Sponsor
Ht everyone,
The reality is, it remains to be seen what happens over time with the 3-valve engines, which are the only ones with those special long spark plugs with the extension on them that tends to show rust, etc.
Personally, I think it's a good idea for everyone that buys one of these trucks (or any other FoMoCo vehicle with a modular engine) to right away, remove the spark plugs, check them, and apply some anti-seize to the threads, and then properly reinstall them so that you don't have these kinds of problems later on.
It is true that these new style plugs for the 3-valve engines do tend to show rust on those extensions, and creak a bit on the way out - I don't like that, either. Usually it's not a problem, but keep in mind that we're only a couple model years into this, so most of the 5.4 3V F-150's don't have a lot of miles on them - and by the time Ford says to replace them at 100K miles, who knows how they'll come out?!? We just don't know that yet, not enough time has gone by.
I just feel that it's always a good idea to pull the plugs on any Ford modular engine very soon after buying the vehicle (especially these 3-valve motors), put a dab of anti-seize on the threads, and then *properly* re-install the plugs with the correct amount of torque/tightness. And since you can't reasonably get a torque wrench on every one, the way we do it is to take the spark plug socket & extension and tighten the spark plug as tight as we can get it BY HAND - WITHOUT the ratchet - and then connect the ratchet and give it 1/8th additional turn. That does the trick for these aluminum cylinder head modular motors, and won't over-tighten them.
Remember, from the factory these spark plugs are generally installed by robots, and in a lot of cases do get over-tightened - which is precisely why the half-thread cylinder heads are more prone to spit out spark plugs, though the 2003 & up full-thread heads have done it once in a while, too. They are over-tightened, either from the factory or form someone replacing them later on (happens more in Lightnings that get lots of mods simply because they tend to get more spark plug changes), and then over time, with enough thermal expansion & contraction cycles from heating & cooling, the threads distort, then the plug loosens up, and then it spits the plug out. I think we'll see a LOT less of that on 3-valve motors, of course, this happens mostly in 2002 & earlier modular motors with the half-thread (4 threads instead of 8) plug bore design.
So if you are really concerned about this (and I think it's a a good idea to be concerned for all owners of Ford modular engines), then get the special spark plug socket that is required for all of the 3-valve engines, for the rest of you just a regular spark plug socket and get those plugs out of there - check them, clean them up if they are reusable (if they have 50K or more miles replace them!), put a dab of anti-seize on the threads (because you have aluminum cylinder heads), and then reinstall them as I described above, and you should be OK.
I hope that helps,
The reality is, it remains to be seen what happens over time with the 3-valve engines, which are the only ones with those special long spark plugs with the extension on them that tends to show rust, etc.
Personally, I think it's a good idea for everyone that buys one of these trucks (or any other FoMoCo vehicle with a modular engine) to right away, remove the spark plugs, check them, and apply some anti-seize to the threads, and then properly reinstall them so that you don't have these kinds of problems later on.
It is true that these new style plugs for the 3-valve engines do tend to show rust on those extensions, and creak a bit on the way out - I don't like that, either. Usually it's not a problem, but keep in mind that we're only a couple model years into this, so most of the 5.4 3V F-150's don't have a lot of miles on them - and by the time Ford says to replace them at 100K miles, who knows how they'll come out?!? We just don't know that yet, not enough time has gone by.
I just feel that it's always a good idea to pull the plugs on any Ford modular engine very soon after buying the vehicle (especially these 3-valve motors), put a dab of anti-seize on the threads, and then *properly* re-install the plugs with the correct amount of torque/tightness. And since you can't reasonably get a torque wrench on every one, the way we do it is to take the spark plug socket & extension and tighten the spark plug as tight as we can get it BY HAND - WITHOUT the ratchet - and then connect the ratchet and give it 1/8th additional turn. That does the trick for these aluminum cylinder head modular motors, and won't over-tighten them.
Remember, from the factory these spark plugs are generally installed by robots, and in a lot of cases do get over-tightened - which is precisely why the half-thread cylinder heads are more prone to spit out spark plugs, though the 2003 & up full-thread heads have done it once in a while, too. They are over-tightened, either from the factory or form someone replacing them later on (happens more in Lightnings that get lots of mods simply because they tend to get more spark plug changes), and then over time, with enough thermal expansion & contraction cycles from heating & cooling, the threads distort, then the plug loosens up, and then it spits the plug out. I think we'll see a LOT less of that on 3-valve motors, of course, this happens mostly in 2002 & earlier modular motors with the half-thread (4 threads instead of 8) plug bore design.
So if you are really concerned about this (and I think it's a a good idea to be concerned for all owners of Ford modular engines), then get the special spark plug socket that is required for all of the 3-valve engines, for the rest of you just a regular spark plug socket and get those plugs out of there - check them, clean them up if they are reusable (if they have 50K or more miles replace them!), put a dab of anti-seize on the threads (because you have aluminum cylinder heads), and then reinstall them as I described above, and you should be OK.
I hope that helps,
#15
10-19-2005, 05:18 PM
Senior Member
Now somebody besides Quintin and Tschaid step up to the plate and see what happens. :o I might have to try this this weekend. I have 14K on mine right now. I've only put 500 miles on it in the last two months so i might have to be the guinea pig here. I'll see if I can get the ***** to do this. Im in college right now and not sure if i can afford 1700 dollars to fix one if it breaks.